Ninja Straight sword

Whilst glancing across the internet today I came across this on my face book page.

now i'm not going to be drawn into an argument whether straight blades existed or not, i'm just posting because this has been brought up before.

http://www.skhquest.com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/

Quote:

Interestingly there is also what appears to be a straight bladed drawing of a sword by Hatsumi in his ninja book that he wrote for children showing what appears to be a straight sword in a straight saya with a ninja in a mask.

I know its only a drawing but it appears pretty straight to me.

Theres also a chart showing the ranking of the Jonin, Chunin and Genin on the same page saying that Chunin commanded Genin on behalf of the Jonin.

I thought this might spark some interest.

However before anyone attacks me for putting this here I'm just going to make it clear that I am not going to be drawn into a debate as I really know nothing about the straight sword idea.

Just posting it here for interest.

Garth

 

For all your (previous) devotion to Stephen Hayes, Gary, your attention to detail leaves a lot to be desired.

"Tanemura-san spoke. 'Hatsumi sensei has written several books in Japanese. Some deal with philosophy, and others are for children.'
'Do they explain any of the techniques, or the higher powers of the ninja? Or how to develop these abilities?'
Hatsumi sensei looked at me curiously. 'No, of course not. This knowledge is not for the public. In any case, no one would believe in these abilities unless he had seen them in action.' He handed me a copy of one of his children's books. It was illustrated with pictures of skulking figures in black outfits that resembled jumpsuits. They were engaged in various types of combat with an incredible assortment of weapons. 'This is what the public thinks ninjutsu is, so we humor it.'"

- Quoted from "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art", page 46.

 

Almost forgot - in the first few minutes of the "Ninja Biken" video, Hatsumi clearly states that the supposed square tsuba of the shinobigatana is historically inaccurate EDIT: in terms of having been used by the ninja. Now what do you suppose Hayes has to say about that?

 

The subtitler's translation of Mr Hatsumi on Ninja Biken (VHS version):

"There are many people who take is as fact that the guard of the ninja sword was a square sword guard, but in reality, the square sword guard, also called kyokaku tsuba, was not the sword guard of the ninja. The ninja’s sword was of the very popular four-petalled type."

 

Kagete posted

Kagete I am very aware of this quote, but I took that as meaning fiction books for children which he wrote and sent up ninjutsu in that same way as he did on that Childrens TV Programme that he was involved in.

However reading that book (Ninja kids dojo) it does seem somewhat of a serious attempt to educate children in Ninjutsu after all this book seems to dispel a lot of the ninja sterotypical beliefs e.g.

'It has been said that a ninja could get upon a wooden mizu-gumo and walk on water.But in reality that was not possible. If an adult got on it would sink'

Page 20

Now if Hatsumi was sending up the idea of the ninja surely he would have the ninja skateing across water but he doesnt. Instead he actually goes out of his way to explain reality of the device.

In fact all in all the book is not a bad book and talks a lot about things we would associate with ninjutsu including stealth steps, taijutsu etc and there is nothing in it that I would say doesnt fit in with what we know about Ninjutsu and certainly no exagerations of the Ninja Sterotype i.e ninja being able to dislocate their joints, flying through the air on kites etc.

So I have no reason to believe that this book was written as a send up for children especially as on page 2 he states that he teaches children and give his address as Noda.

So I take your point that Hatsumi used to write books for children that sent up ninjutsu but I cant see this book (Ninja Kids Dojo) as being one of them.

Garth

 

Seriously.

Why the hell would you think that?

All things considered?

 

Furthermore, why is it that Hayes claims to be quoting Hatsumi, when the quote in question comes from the book "History and Tradition" which we all know was ghostwritten?

 

kagete instead of just saying

Thus showing no evidence why we should take this work as a send up of ninjutsu, why dont you post a quote from this book that we know was written to send up the stereotypical image of the ninja i.e dislocating joints, flying through the air, disapearing at will etc.

Garth

 

Yes and i'm not argueing with you here as it well may be, its just that the person that sent it claims that it was from...

Ninja Magazine – Winter 1987
Translated by Masaru Hirai

Garth

 

Kagete said - "Furthermore, why is it that Hayes claims to be quoting Hatsumi, when the quote in question comes from the book "History and Tradition" which we all know was ghostwritten?"

Sorry Kagete but it seems from this that you've only read the quoted text and not the actual blog it's copied from. The blog specifically addresses that point and explains how this new quote is actually from an interview that Hatsumi gave to Ninja magazine in Winter 1987 and which wasn't connected to Hayes from what I can see.

Beyond that I have no opinion, I just thought it was worth pointing out.

 

To the best of my knowledge, History and Tradition was published way before that. 1981, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: Yup, found it:

http://www.books-by-isbn.com/0-8656...-Tradition-Masaaki-Hatsumi-0-86568-027-2.html

 

Given what you know of the man, would you take everything he writes - in a book for children, no less - as gospel truth?

We don't know if that American, whom Soke "allowed" to become the next Soke, won't actually become the next head of the nine ryuha. Do we?

 

I don't exactly consider the old Ninja magazine a trustworthy source anymore, nor Hayes. When I see something in Japanese I will start to listen.

The illustrations in the book might look like a straight blade to some, but that can really be laid at the artist skill level.

On a related note, that link to Hayes' page is rather beyond belief, even for him. Again he talks about conspiracies and such to bring him down. This part made me laugh so hard I was glad I wasn't drinking a glass of milk.

Oh dear, does he really expect us not to remember his early stuff?

 

I still remember reading practically that in Mystic Arts when I was 12.

 

Kagete posted

If your talking of Hatsumi then no.

But I see you have failed to answer the question.

I asked based on your quote that you posted that said that the books that Hatsumi published for kids were send up of ninjutsu, why you believe that is true with this particular childrens books.

I.e can you post something in that book that we can take as a send up of the ninja for example dislocating joints, flying through the air etc.

In fact do you have a copy of said book from which you can quote an example where Hatsumi has sent up ninjutsu. Because having a copy of that book it seems to me that Hatsumi has written a very informative book for children on the subject that includes a lot of information that even adult practitioners would like to get their hands on.

For example the Ninja roku Gi (Ninja six tools) or the listing of the shinobi aruki such as suri ashi, shime ashi, o ashi, kata ashi etc or the ten mon chi mon etc etc.

In fact information that was not around in the west when this book was written in 1982


So my question still stands. Can you post a quote or two from that book that shows that the book is a send up of ninjutsu for children. I guess you do own the book your talking about????

Garth

 

JibranK posted

I think you need to read that again

page 78

note the words

'Occasionally a rather straight chokuto style blade'

Garth

 

My apologies for not remembering verbatim your great master An-Shu's words from years ago. The point stands, though. Look on swordforum; there are people who've searched various exhibitions and sword shows but never were able to find the Hollywood ninjato.

 

Gary.

Tell me something.

If Hatsumi said to you, "now you're so good, you don't need to train anymore", how would you interpret that?

 

It is interesting to note that Hayes originated the myth of the straight sword, and then later denied they used them. In his sixth book in the Ohara series he lists the straight sword as a myth and claims that Japanese thought they did due the ninja's connection with Fudo Myou -o. (So what source shows that the Japanese thought this?)

Now he seems to be reversing himself yet again by claiming that the ninja did use them! Can't he keep his story straight?

Actually, I am a little honored. It seems that he is concerned about me and a blog I wrote.

Take a look at what he wrote.

As always, he seems a bit narcissistic in thinking that people are trying to get to the truth about straight swords just to take him down. To try to argue that all the stuff put out dispelling that myth is merely motivated out of jealously has got to be proof of a huge ego problem.

But I think that he is referencing my blog about Patchy Bujinkan where I point out that he went around saying that the ninja used straight swords, even selling straight bladed bokken, to point out that if he had actually gotten sword training in Japan he would have known better.

As I see it, he either thinks that everyone interested in swords at Swordforum.com and elsewhere, inside and outside the Bujinkan, who have said that there were no straight blades are doing so just to get him or he is really concerned with what I have pointed out.