I might be making a huge mistake here posting this, but this morning I was moving some things in the new house we moved into and came across some old Ninja realm magazines. As I was looking at them I noticed a cover of one and thought in regard to some of the comments posted here i.e. in Hayes stopping people going to Japan my find was quite apt. Its from volume 10, number 6 Nov-Dec 1985 entitled "Japanese Ninjutsu Experiences" i'm not going to copy all of it but will post some of the more relevent passages as its a whole page on the front cover of this magazine. "We receive many letters from members and non-members alike who request information on travelling to Japan for the purpose of studying ninjutsu in one of the dojos there, or visiting some of the more historically significant locations relating to the cultural roots of Japan's famous ninja legacy. The iga regions........are located south west of Kyoto .....you can reach the region in about six or seven hours.......The Togakure region is about four hours from Tokyo by train......To find authentic ninjutsu training in Japan today, it is generally necesary to travel to Noda City in Chiba Prefecture, Northeast of Tokyo. The small city is the original home of my teacher, Masaaki Hatsumi.....Grandmaster Masaaki hatsumi now supervises training in the dojos of the shidoshi senior practitioners of his art from his home in Noda City. There are a few training halls away from the greater Tokyo and Noda area, but it must be mentioned that that these Bujinkan dojos are even more difficult to find than are the very difficult to find dojos in Noda city. some of my friends operate training groups in regions as far away as Tochigi, Yamagata and Osaka.....If you do want to make the Japan trip, your best bet is to contact a travel agent who is used to arranging travel to Japan....(advice on visa and passport follow)...As for finding dojos in Japan, the best tactic would be to use one of our seminars or the annual ninja Festival to get to know someone who has already been to Japan for a training visit. It may indeed surprise you that just how many North Americans and Europeans have made the trip to Japan in recent years. your new friend can then advise you on what he or she found, as well as give you contact addreses and that all important introduction to a Bujinkan dojo teacher in Japan" Now this was written 25 years ago, and whilst Hayes states that he cannot give out personal adresses, which is understandable, he doesn't make any mention about only being able to reach Hatsumi through him. You can make of this article what you will, but I thought I would post it here for interest and present another side of the views held by some. Before any argument ensues I will not be taking part in any part of the discussion as I posted for interest only.
Naturally you wouldn't want to discuss it because that would cause you problems. If you want people to take that article as evidence that Stephen Hayes wasn't trying to control how "ninjutsu" was propogated in America, then you have your work cut out for you. Thing about a few things: When did SOI get founded? When did the ninja boom start in the States? How many of Hayes' top students had been to Japan in the early 80s and how many had lived there by 85(when did most first visit Japan)? Posting one article without thinking how it fits into the scheme of things is a bit silly. Show us an article with similar information from 81 and I think many would be impressed(and a list of names of all the Westerners who visited Noda in the interim). Funny though, I was talking to a gentleman who used to be a student of Hayes back in the day and it was when he first went to Japan that he saw the sanshin. He had to go ot the kids class to learn it. Yet those who worship Hayes still think he was learning the r34l ninpo when he couldn't even understand Japanese and lived on another island to boot. It is kind of strange that a guy in the UK who has never been to Japan is constantly bringing up and defending a has been who hasn't been to see his own teacher for years and has been out of the art for even longer. Makes you wonder why he doesn't just post on the Toshindo forum(if there is one) instead. :dunno: Oh that's right, he isn't a member of Toshindo anymore either...:bang: So why the contiual Hayes worship? Could it be more marketing I wonder? Instead of more Hayes threads, it would be nice if people took their own advice to heart: Especially training with a real teacher with an authentic lineage!
Why do you post these types of things and yet you always respond if you get a chance before the thread is closed? I suspect another multi paged argument is in the making. You might as well admit the responsibility for causing the mods more stress. As for the subject, I am sure you want to look at it like Hayes was not trying to keep control of the situation, but I see it quiet differently. By 1985 when the article came out Bussey had helped a lot of people realize that you did not have to only go through Hayes. The quote from ninja realm is still pretty clear he wants the students to go through him. And if you take into account all the comments from people who were there at the beginning, you have to conclude that Hayes did not want anyone else threatening his cash flow. Take a look at the various media sources from 1981 and the next few years and you will see no mention that they were still taking students in Japan. Of course, it is an assumption that when Hatsumi is not taking any more students that it means that other teachers of his style will follow his example, but it is a natural assumption. And the guys who were with Hayes back then tell me that it pretty much was what he was telling them in person. It is a good example of the half truths and deceptions that Hayes is famous for. He makes a lot of lies. You Garth know that the story he has about his departure from the Bujinkan is a complete fabrication. But more often he likes to only present part of the story, leaving out the parts that a truly honest person would put in. Wasn't it you who were told by Hayes that he had a house in Japan for many years, only to find out that the house was in Kumamoto and too far for training? Here is another one I just ran across. On the page on Hayes in wiki I found the following. To those who know, note what is missing. It is a fact that Hayes first went to Japan in 1975. And it is a fact that he left Japan in 1980. But what is missing is that the first trip to Japan only lasted less than a month. He spent several years in America and then made a return trip to Japan for a while. If you think this is a mistake, then look through the previous version of the wiki page. There actually were statements that were backed up by sources like the article of Hayes teaching in Atlanta in an issue of Black Belt. These were carefully trimmed out by someone who wanted it to look like Hayes had a full five years living in training in Japan. This is the type of deception we have come to expect from Hayes and his defenders. Not only do we have to look for outright lies, but we also have to be looking for times when he tells a story in such a way that we naturally get the wrong impression.
I had thought about mentioning Bussey in my previous post. Many who were around back in the day knew about the rivalry between him and Hayes. If you ever talk to people like Larry Turner, you will hear some pretty interesting stories about the "innovator." It is kind of funny when people try to reinvent recent history as if nobody knows the truth.
Reality Please posted Only in so much that we would go at logerheads with each other and the thread would go on for 5 days or more achieving nothing. Now I said that I posted said post for interest only, but I will post this and leave the thread at that. I'm guessing about 1980 based on Ninja realm magazine, but is this actually relevant. from what i understand there was no Stephen K Hayes ninja school empire there were a few people training with Stephen when he wasn't doing seminars around the US and Europe When Hayes books first came out? Well as Hayes had few personal students i.e Hoban, Malmstrom we can only take it on those. And I believe both were out there by 1985 I believe having met Hatsumi in 1981/82 as did so many other when hayes brought Hatsumi to the USA. Yep he wanted to keep Hatsumi away from people so much that he invited Hatsumi in to teach to them:bang: Whats living there got to do with the claim that Hayes stopped people going to Japan. whether people lived there or not is their decision not that of Hayes. The unholy posted And yet Ninja Realm does. I can think it might have been a very good decision back in the 1980s that Hayes didn't tell all the readers of BB magazine that real ninjutsu training could be found in Noda. Imagine we might have hundreds of westerners turning up just to get their token black belt so they could open a dojo and teach sub standard martial arts. Of course that would never happen would it On Wiki? Got to be true then:bang: Actually Hayes wrote a reply to Gary Brewer a few years ago with permision from Hayes to post it on here. Hayes discusses his training history at this time saying IIC that he went to Japan in 1975, returned to the USA and returned to Japan for a few years. Anyway I said i'll stay off this thread as I posted what i did for interest. This has all been discussed at length before, so its old ground.
Ok, so this is the second time you said you would post without responding further. You already broke your word once in this thread (let alone all the other ones) how can we expect you to deal in good faith now? Lets look at the facts. Is the section George Kohler posted he pointed out that Bussey went to Japan in early 1980 saying that he fully expected based on what Hayes said that he would not be accepted but willing to spend the money on the chance. The post you sited was from a full five years later. How much can happen in five years? In the last five years Rick Ray has left the Genbukan and went over to the Bujinkan three times! Obviously, people like Bussey were already going to Japan on their own. Bussey was not known for keeping silent and there were others that found out and went as well. The secret was out. People were starting to go to Japan on their own and Hayes had to try to maintain control as best he could. It is rather the same as all the other times as Hayes found himself trying to explain away things after the fact. We could ask the following, Why did you never tell us about the kihon happon? Why did you tell us the ninja used a straight sword? Why did you never tell us you made up the godai system? Wy didn't you tell us the truth about training in Japan? In all of the above, years after his initial story Hayes made excuses instead of taking responsibility. He did not want to lose students over his lack of knowledge. You know he is lying about something just to keep his students. What makes this story five years after Bussey blew the lid off his chances of keeping control any different?
Why oh why did I know you was not going to do as you said. You didnt post this just for intterest. you posted it to incite a debate you could then jump on and start your constant year after year quote quote quote posts that bore the hell out of almost everyone on here. i think you do it to get a reaction not for interest. You do it for your own entertainment. You rarely post a reply with out quote after quote, including quoteing yourself sometimes from several years ago, you must keep a catalogue of your posts because to be truthful not one of us could drag up some of the comments you made on this date on that post in year god knows what. :bang: how the hell did I know that you wouldnt do that. you must spoend hours composing those posts which many of use just skim past. in long threads I dont even stop to read yours because its mostly regergitated junk you have quoted and posted repeatedly year in year out.
Hayes is bringing a new book out... [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/4805312114/"]The Ninja Defense: A Modern Master's Approach to Universal Dangers:Amazon:Books[/ame]
In many of the early articles in Black Belt magazine they do give the impression that Hayes was training more extensively. Obviously some of the fault may lie with the author; however it does seem to be consistent. The June 1980 "Modern Ninja" article is particularly interesting because it recounts Hayes first meeting with Hatsumi told to the author then ends with "That was five years ago and Hayes is still in Japan today. He makes occasional visits to Atlanta, where he is still associated with the dojo where he once taught. As the only Occidental student of Hatsumi's, he is one of the few practitioners capable of easily moving from one culture to the other." It's interesting to read some of these old articles and it is also interesting to note that at the time of the June 1980 article he was only 30 years old. There are some interesting parallels with some individuals today.
It's interesting because it lays to rest the premise that rank is gotten more quickly nowadays. It's amazing to think that I've been training longer than SKH had been when he wrote his books. I hope to God he was better at the art than I am!
Judging by the pics in his books...no Looks stiff. Looks like he's trying to do taijutsu but clinging on to his karate (?) background. Gaijin butt is very pronounced which is odd as I'd have thought his flexibility would have been good then. And then there's the bolt-on Lamaism religion thingy...
