Right, just want to here everones opinions of these types of tournememts. Are they the sport of the future? Or are they just a degenerative ofspring of the martial arts? Do traditionalists have a place in these tournements? or would they just get their butts kicked? I've got my own thoughts on this but I want to here everyone else's. Cheers
I have an open view of the UFC and NHB although they're not a real interest of mine since UFC has become grappling dominated. I saw the UFC in Davenport, IA and have met Pat Miletich since he lives and owns a school a few miles from my mom and have alot of respect for most of the fighters. I don't think they will catch on like TKD has though. They are in my opinion in the same position as kickboxing etc in the 80's. Rob
UFC rules are written to favour the grappler (yes they have rules!) One of the rules says something like 'avoidances are illegal'??!!??!! Bugger, there goes being able to fight people bigger than me (wonder if they have a midget league )
sport of the future? maybe, 3rd most popular spectator sport in Japan according to the shootfighting folk. Degenerative offspring of the martial Arts? No, its an offspring of martial sports (Kickboxing, wrestling, Judo, Submission wrestling, etc.) No, "traditionalists" are bound by tradition, they don't adapt to changes and don't do well in new things. One tradtion associated with "traditionalists" is getting beaten up in full contact matches such as MMA Classicalists maybe... But remember once it becomes bound by rules it is not an art, it is a sport. If you want to compete in a sport at a high level you have to train in that sport, not in an art which incompases all of the things involved in that sport, but includes a lot of other things as well. I am a karate (and Kobudo) instructor, I've had a shootfghting instructor teach out of my school. And to be honest he didn't do anything I didn't do. Some things I did differently, some things maybe I didn't like doing but had done. But the difference was the goal. They trained to win in a controlled enviroment, I trained to win in an uncontrolled one. So if you only want to fight in the ring, then shootfighting would have been a better choice as we wasted time doing irrelevant things, plus we trained to break a lot of there rules. The name "Mixed Martial Arts" isn't a accurate one for this reason, but it helps get them accepted by the public. "Combined Fighting" or "Minimal rules combat" would just get them banned in more places. "Martial Arts" are an acceptable practice, basically its marketing and image management
What would you say is the difference between a classicist and a traditionalist? (cause I know two different types of traditionalist, maybe some of them are classicists). I would have to disagree that Judo is a martial sport (although the majority of schools now are geared toward competition, it originally wasn't). Thanx
This is purely my distinction coming from a karate perspective, not a standard martial arts rule or anything Traditional styles follow the model first presented by Ituso and developed by Funakoshi and his followers. Kata is standardized and the aesthetic attributes are more important then the usefulness of the kata. Sparring is rule boud, done for points with the goal of winning, not improving "real" fighting ability. Classical styles are done for the purpose of self-defence and health. They are done as individual pursuits with modifications made for different students. Less emphasis is placed on "preserving" or "standardizing" more on effectivness and living a long life. More a differnence in training, not one in style names. Sure it was, Kano developed it with safe techniques that could be used in competition and wanted it in the olympics. Kendo - sport Judo - Sport Karatedo (In its Japanese version) - sport Can they be done as an art, sure, was that what they where originally for, maybe but they where developed as a sport since they got those names.
Its a big error in general perception that Kano wanted a sport. He originally wanted a form of training that provided strength, flexibilty and stamina. He only 'removed' the dangerous techniques to kata (atemi-waza) and separate training (Goshin Jutsu), unfortunately these are rarely taught today, in favour of sporting aspects. And doesn't a 'do, mean 'way', as opposed to a Jutsu 'art'? Anyway kinda off point here.
Thanks Freeform, but you're going to get me in trouble. Are they the sport of the future? I doubt it. Let's look at "average Joe" and "average Mary". They go to work everyday and have a family, friends, a social life. They don't want to put in the effort of pain to learn MMA, they want to just go to a nice dojo, break a little sweat, tak to some people and learn about some "exotic" traditions and culture. Average Joe and Average Mary aren't interested in a barbaric looking sport like mma, hence the fan base will never grow as people knowledgable in the sport will remain small. Are they a degenerative offspring of the martial arts? I obviously don't think so. I actually think MMA is what martial arts used to be about and should be about. Traditionalists by nature will never be able to compete at high level MMA competitions just by the very nature of being a traditionalist. Once you start learning a little ground work, some boxing handwork or wrestling takedowns (basically any deviation from the traditional framework) you aren't a traditionalist anymore. And I'm sorry but Jodan uke, or Sanchin isn't going to cut it. Everyone here keeps saying MMA is a sport, like that's a bad thing? Boxing is a sport as well? Do you honestly think you can defeat a Lennox Lewis? I've fought traditional martial artists, not in the ring but as a challenge match, and it was ridiculously easy. There were no rules, and I mean none. They could kick me in the groin, poke me in the eyes, whatever. It didn't matter. Now, someone's probably going to say "Well they obviously didn't know what they were doing." But, that just reinforces my point. I'm no major huge name fighter, just a B class pro. I can take any of my students after 6 months training and they will honestly be able to defend themselves in the street. Can a traditional stylist do this after 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? I have more, but I'll see how much trouble I get into here first.
True, but that doesn't mean that they can't be used for self-defense. Remember that the average attacker isn't trained in anything except threatening people and occasionally has experience of street fighting. Most of them will be drunk as well. If you define a traditionalist as someone who trains purely in one art then naturally they won't be able to compete in MMA, because they're not training in MMA. Try putting someone who's trained MMA in a traditional ring. It's convenient that once they start training to be able to compete in MMA competition they're no longer traditionalists, rather than the reason for their traditionalism being the values that they adhere to throughout their training. After a few months training the majority of our students can defend themselves, and in most cases where they've been required to have done successfully. Of course since CKD is hardly traditional I'm not sure whether it counts in this.
Of course, the average person prefers WWF type stuff, submissions are much too barbaric, hit them with a chair, throw them through a table, slam their head into the ring post, whatever... JUST DON"T USE A HEEL HOOK!!! But, to be fair, I would consider a lot of traditional schools far more barbaric then any MMA schools. How often do you cover knife work? Breaking bones? Multiple attackers? Improvised weaponry? Personally I think MMA is not the most barbaric martial sport out there. I'd say even boxing is worse, I'd much rather submit to that heel hook then take another 10 rounds of punches and not be able to stand afterwards because my brain has been bounced around so much... So, MMA is a "traditional" approach... Nope, it depends on what traditions you follow. Suppose my traditions are to take what works and improve upon it. Not a bad thing, but it does place limitations on it, there are many things that MMA's do not do, alone it is a sport, but it also is a great training tool for "traditionalists" What are the rules? Traditional Ryukyu Kobudo against boxing, pretty sure I could That'll be enough. Most "traditionalists" simply don't do the sort of training you likely do, and are going to loose because of it. You're using a rather wide definition for "traditionalist", I could then define what you do as "sport", and as "sport" tae kwoon do fighters, or "sport" karate fighters are easy pickings outside their own set of rules conclude that "sport" systems are useless. Yes. Another thing to consider is the sort of people a system will attract. People that want to fight, that want to train hard, are willing to break their noses and bleed regularly are going to go to a full contact sport school, thats where they'll get that training. Most people don't want this, and won't go their, they'll go to a school that doesn't give them black eyes and broken noses regularly, usually that means a traditional school. That doesn't mean a traditional school can't train as hard and take the abuse MMA do, there are some pretty brutal traditional schools out there, but most don't and some just have it as an option.
Lessee, where I am around one in twenty or thirty people train in some form of martial art. Given that perhaps quarter of those train for fitness, and call it martial arts that cuts the figure down to one in twenty-five. Now if you take into account that all but perhaps one in ten of those know that getting into a fight is a bad idea (call it ten times fewer than untrained) that cuts the number of potential fights with someone trained down to one in two hundred and fifty. Finally mix in that most fights (call it half for fairness) occur because at least one person is drunk and you've got one in five hundred fights where you'll be up against a trained martial artist. Finally throw in that the average person will be involved in a fight perhaps once every five years and you've now got approximately a very low chance that the person you're fighting will be trained. As for muggings people who carry them out are usually trying to get money. Does this suggest that they can afford to pay for martial art classes? And yes, I agree with you that by your definition traditional martial artists cannot compete in a mixed martial arts tournament, unfortunately the argument that they're traditional because they don't train in mixed martial arts and they can't compete because they don't train is somewhat circular.
No Holds Barred! Extreme Fighting! etc. Has more to do with the initial marketing used then what is actually done now. If it had been introduced as it is done today, under the name "mixed martial arts" it might not have these problems. But the big marketing line for the early UFC's was "THERE ARE NO RULES!" Difference of definition, Miyagi (believe you said Goju...) didn't do exactly what his instructors did, he used it as a starting point and modified it to better suit his needs. By your definition I would agree, styles that are traditional in thaat sense are missing the point. I don't like the term "traditional", I prefer to use the term "classical", as tradition tends to be interpreted in the way you understand it, which does not describe what a "traditional" school should be doing. Of course, but there are other things that are different as well. Things like, in the ring there will always be only one opponent. Your not going to get a good choke locked in and then have his buddy, that you didn't know about, start kicking you in the head. You won't get a good position, and then a knife in your kidney You will always have a flat smooth, soft surface to roll on. Your opponent (should) know enough about what your doing that once you have a submission hold locked in they tap out, not injure themselves getting free. MMA are, in my opinion, the best at what they do. What they do is agreed upon one on one fighting with a very limited set of rules. They are not the best at everything though, there are things they don't cover. Now if we can take the training attitude and the competitive format as a training method and apply that to "traditional" arts, keep the multiple attackers, the weapons, and the "avoid the ground whenever possible" aspects of the "tradtional" arts. You'd get a much better martial artist. Traditional arts have always tried to improve themselves, only recently has the "preserve everything, add nothing, change nothing" mentality appeared. There isn't really anything I've seen in MMA that wasn't already in the traditional arts. But then it all depends on your definition of "traditional"...
