New Taijin Class

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by belltoller, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Different movement's often have several different legitimate applications. Different people look for different things in the forms. Over time people develop their own way of seeing and understanding the forms. This shapes the way that they practice them. Memories are fallible. Over the years people stop practicing the form as they were taught it and begin to practice it as they Understand it. But understanding changes over time and hence so do the forms.

    If you like the class, like the instructor, like what you are leaning and like practicing it, I would not worry about the credentials of the instructor or the "legitimacy" of the instructor or of what they teach.

    As you begin to practice you will become more familiar with the art. You will be able to see the similarities and differences in the way it is practiced for yourself. If you begin to feel its not for you any more then change. But as long as you and your wife can fit practice in with daily life, and as long as you are enjoying and learning from the experience - why worry?
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Here is what my Sifu says when people ask him about why another lineage does it this way and we do it that way. (Paraphrasing). I can't tell you why others do it the way they do. I CAN tell you why WE do things the way we do."

    If you wonder about why something is done a certain way, ask your instructor. Honestly, this should be being explained as you are being taught, but if it isn't, ASK!

    Understand the reasons behind why you are doing each move. Why is there extension here? Why is your hand/ arm angled this way? Why do you do this particular footwork?

    Yeah, IMO a lot of it comes to understanding the martial application of the moves. In Boxing, you don't have forms. But we do in TCMA. But the martial application is vital to understanding how to do the move correctly - otherwise (again IMO) it is dance- not a martial art and not a proper understanding of the role of forms in TCMA.

    Some are legitimate variances for reasons others have mentioned. But sometimes it comes down to that instructor not teaching TCC as a proper martial art. If they can't explain why they do things a certain way, I would suspect this being the case. and I would see that as a problem.

    Once you understand why you do things a certain way, and it makes sense to you - don't worry about why others do things their way. I find it fun to discuss and compare, but ultimately, I worry about my own practice and not so much about others.

    Understanding your own practice is what REALLY matters.
  3. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I'm a prep freak, I suppose. I like to know exactly what I'm doing before I do it and I like practicing everything to the nth degree before I learn it - yeah I know - a bit obsessive.

    One of my inner-ear spaces - the drum and mastoid processes was destroyed by a type of RBF-like disease and my sense of spatial proximity gets a bit skewed, depending on the weather/humidity so I sometimes like to have multiple-angle tape or vids on things I'm learning.

    Interestingly, it didn't really affect me during boxing - my spatial awareness was actually quite good but I'm in a sticky wicket here for some reason.
  4. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    You're absolutely correct - our instructor has been forthcoming regarding the MA reasoning behind the various moves of the form - I just didn't pick it up last time because of collapsed ear-drums - things are beginning to take shape now.

    Now its getting my memory ( and spatial proximity ) down better.
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    We have a student who is VERY hard of hearing. He has this mini recorder thing that he sometimes has an instructor wear during class.

    I think he takes it home and amplifies it to catch anything he missed during the lesson?

    Not sure exactly how it works, but if you think something like this might be worth looking into, I will ask him or his instructor more details about it for you.
  6. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Thanks - I'll look into that! We were looking into bone-conduction devices then I'd surgery which seemed to correct things for a bit so I quit exploring amplification devices (really takes a lot of time and research) and now the surgery seems to be in the process of failing - so its back to the drawing board.
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Yes I know, but not per the Yang (Taijiquan) family. They have separated CMC into a style of its own.

    However I should also say I do not usually agree much with the current Yang Family members "in charge". They also said anything after Tung Ying Chieh is no longer Yang style as well.
  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Could it be said that if the changes are subtle, but still applicable, with a reasonable explanation, this is a "good thing"? Martial arts have been evolving, so that means there were always "changes". The problem with changes "within" a style, is that people who "branch off" are at odds with others of the same style/org
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Yeah,well the family also wrote off all Shao-hou's disciples as if they never existed-the ones who wouldn't bow the knee and become Cheng-fu's disciples after his brother's death,and spread the lies that Shao-hou was too rough and didn't have students who could stick it out.

    Their politics and family infighting make me vomit.It's amusing tho', as the family hasn't exactly turned out a lot of fighters in the last 50+ years. I guess it's just if they can't control it,they say it's not Yang.

    At least Tung put something else into his system,elements from Wu/Li/Hao-as I said,there's nothing in Cheng's that not from new or old Yang.My teacher who was Tung's disciple didn't consider either Tung's nor Cheng's to be anything other than Yang systems.
  10. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    My sifu was also a student to Tung, and taught with Hu Ling in Thailand, and he too only calls it Yang Style.

    If I remember correctly the current yang family made some statement that 2 generations removed could still be called Yang style. Example my sifu can call what he does Yang style. However he cannot teach Yang style. Only Yang Family and 1 generation out can teach Yang style. They also came up with a rather silly belt ranking system too. But then when you are trying to sell a "Brand" name to westerners and make money these are the things you must do I guess.

    Interesting note on Shaohou; A few years back the current Yang Family heads were saying that the Shaohou line had vanished and they did not know if there was anyone in that line left. My sifu thought that was pretty funny, because he knew they lived in Hong Kong, as a matter of fact, per my sifu, everyone knew that. A little while after that the Yang's came out with exciting news, they found family from Yang Shouhou in Hong Kong. I am guessing someone called them on that one.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    One of the many and highly disputed distinctions between what is an internal and what is an external art is to do with intent.

    It can be argued that at first the intent of the external art is to create an external effect. To hit, to doge, to lock etc. With am external goal in mind the focus is outside the body. Less on how you do it more on what you achieve.

    it can be argued that at first the intent of the internal art is to generate awareness of what is happening inside your own body. To build up the bodies awareness of different muscle groups of movement of coordination, balance, tension and relaxation within the body and of how force is transmitted through the body. More on how you do it less on what you achieve.

    This can lead to a different emphasis on learning that can be difficult to get used to. Of coarse there is still good technique and bad technique. But in terms of learning it can mean that it is better to do a technique not so well but with increasing understanding and awareness of what is going on in your own body than it is to do a technique perfectly but be unaware of how you achieved it.

    Or put anther way the focus is on the process and not on the end result. This approach can be frustrating to get at first particularly if you are used to making sense of things by looking at the result, it can seam as though there is little concrete to hang onto, but is really rewarding when the penny begins to drop.
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Or maybe in a while they'll be having "Old Yang" $eminars-watered down,of course!

  13. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Is this a registered trademark licensed MA whose owners need permission before it can be taught??!??

    Ah...the pyjamy arts. What can ya do? lol

    Thanks for you most felicitous post. My instructor said this very thing - He gave me some of the reasoning behind different moves of the form(s) but said that I shouldn't worry it to begin and that he thought I looked like I was trying to "turn it into karate" from the very first class and this the reason for my feeling that I was not getting it - that the act of "trying to get it" was causing me to miss it.

    As he was telling me this, something I recalled from a Mechanics course I'd had a couple hundred years ago about trying to actively measure the location of a quantum resulting in a change in its field/location came briefly to mind but soon escaped me as quickly as it had come.

    Anyroads, lost my train of thought...

    I should instead begin to learn to focus on the internal state of mind - this best accomplished vis-à-vis the awareness of breathing.

    Yeah, a different mindset altogether than what I'm used to.

    I remember some time ago, one of my son's and I worked out most of the Neo/Morpheius dojo fight sequence (the parts that didn't require a wire harness) for the fun of it - it was rather difficult - frame-by-frame choreography of each move/response then putting it together.

    I'd some idea that Tai Chi would be like that so that's the mentality I brought to it -

    Anyway - its way better when one is relaxed and not expecting Yuen Woo Ping style choreography.
  14. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Totally disagree. I will say what I have said before. The terms internal and external are really terms for beginners and the more years you study both, the more one realizes the distinctions made between them really don't exist. They are artificial.

    Internal arts like TCC are absolutely a martial art and one SHOULD have intention in the moves- to hit, dodge, lock, etc. Yes, even though moving slowly. Some of the terrible TCC one see's on the Internet is because intention is lacking.

    And one thing my instructor taught me is that a difference between and advanced martial artist and beginning/ intermediate one is to have an awareness of one's own body- coordination, tension, etc. This is true for all martial arts- both "external" and "internal."

    Both those things IMO should belong in all MA's.

    The process to a correct end result should be in ALL martial arts.

  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Nope, its just the Current Yang family being silly
  16. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Old CMA saying, Internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Meaning if trained correctly, they both end up in the same place.

    And yes in Taijiquan there is hit, dodge, lock, it is just you let the other guy show you where to hit and allow him to lock himself (meaning you do not force it).
  17. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Very briefly, from the first class.

  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, my hearing is better than yours I think, but it is hard to hear what the guy is saying on that tape.

    It sounds like he is saying Yang 64 for the first one. I don't know that one. But is starts of pretty much like the 40 and the 108 long form. Some things are very different from how I am taught, so I can't say for sure. (Like he is on one line doing the "Grasp sparrow's tail? Am I seeing this right?)

    If that second form is Yang style, I would love someone on here to tell me what form that is. I can't make out what the guy says, but it sounds to me like he says "Chen" in it. But that may be my bias making that word in my ears because it sure looks more Chen to me- but I don't do Chen- so I may be completely wrong.

    I am however certain he says that third form is Bagua and I am also pretty sure it IS Bagua and not TCC. Very distinctive circle walking of Bagua.

    Thanks for sharing. Is that your instructor demonstrating it?
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  19. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter


    EDIT: Har -> and I thought it'd clarify things, lol

    EDIT: See if we can piece together this ever-twisting mystery tomorrow.

    Stick a fork in me - I'm done.

    BTW - neither the bloke in the red shirt nor the kid sitting in the chair is me!
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  20. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Guang Ping Yang 64
    [ame=""]Master Y. C. Chiang Demonstrating Guang Ping Yang Taiji - YouTube[/ame]

    Also a simplified Yang 64 form (don't know where this came from)
    [ame=""]Yang Style Tai Chi "64-form" Parts 1 and 2 - YouTube[/ame]

    Chen 18 (originated by Chen Zhenglei)
    [ame=""]Chen Style Tai Chi 18 Form with Chinese and English Step Names - YouTube[/ame]

    Baguazhang (to many different styles to show them all)
    [ame=""]Cheng Style Baguazhang - 64 Palms [程æ°å…«å¦æŽŒ - å…­å四掌] - YouTube[/ame]

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