That's where I'd put my money if I were in Vegas, but I wouldn't call someone out for it either. I've learned to just let it go by, and let the meaning remain with the person who does it.
We are not on about artistry pe se, it’s not about personal expression of movement. It is do these freestyle videos have a place in a weapons forum? Debatable as we can see. It is also about the validity of the “performances”. At the end of the day it comes down to weapon usage most of the freestyle videos have little in the way of combative application, excluding the good old smack em round the head. So as you can see the issue isn’t as subjective as personal taste in art the issue, imo, is something slightly more measurable. Now both types of video can show balance and co-ordination however one type will have movement that is potentially dangerous in an encounter and the other should have something more practical from a combative point of view. Kata are a method of transmission and training both physical and psychological. They are not meant necessarily to be like combat, thinking of them in that way would be a mistake,imo. They are to train the student, condition them and transmit the lessons and principles that the founders and heads of the school felt were important. Edit: I typed a bloody long post and MAP went daft and killed it! :bang: I even managed to get the word Hoplology into it too :bang: :bang:
There's a great deal you can get from such a clip if you know what to look at and appreciate the background, methodology used etc For me in this clip there’s a whole world: http://www.hyoho.com/ni1.mpg Sorry couldn’t find it on the tube. I think you are mistaken there and that's because you are only looking at the outer physical aspects. Not things like the refined muscle memory, system integration, the spatial aspects of the kata and their relevance. There’s a bomb load of stuff going on usually in kata. Not to my eyes you wouldn’t. Considering you would simply have a set of mimicked movements rather than an integrated approach to using them I’d put you just above clueless Joe Bloggs and actually below a “freestyler” but again this isn’t really the point we are arguing about. A weapon is a huge advantage for anyone and I would take anyone seriously but that is not what we are discussing. We are comparing so called free styling against codified systems of combative behaviour. No the video is showing how a specific style uses the weapon within its curriculum. This is done by one of the system’s methods of transmission and training. It shows the individual’s physical skills at applying the weapon within the system being shown and if you know what to look for it shows how the system approaches the problems it was developed to solve. From this, if you know the general “physiology" of such things, you can infer the behaviours and tactical approaches used to solve certain combative problems. Honestly I don’t think you can because you seem confused about what they are showing.
Meh. By waiting until he'd already entered the ring, bowed to the judges and audience, and gotten everyone's rapt attention, he's already made it a part of the performance and, therefore, a part of the judgment. I don't feel bad for drawing assumptions, even if they prove to be wrong later. He's participating in a performance. And the curtain was up at that point. Accepting commentary on what happens after that is part and parcel of being the performer. I'm also not losing any sleep over it, mind you. Just making an observation.
I think you have kind of answered your own question here: The freestyle techniques look far less practical and useful for defense then why are we debating it in martial arts forum. If it is not practical, then it is showmanship, baton twirling. It is not a case of it being lowbrow, but you yourself have point pointed out that it is useless from a martial arts point of view. This is what many people who pull the elitist card fail to understand, its not a case of this is better than that because it is old, it is because one has its base in reality and practicality as budo, the other does not. Nothing against that person, but if they believe that what they are doing is budo, then they are fooling themselves. The Art world is a very different beast, you could argue that all art is subjective, but the "establishment", in its different guises over the years, still seems to drive what is valuable as artwork. I think this remark shows you lack of training (by your own admittance) and a lack of understanding of what you see in this video, and I believe the debate over the importance of kata as a means of transmitting Japanese martial arts has been done to death. Kata performed correctly show all of the things you mention this video lacks, however when you understand what you are watching, you would see them too.
That's a good point. He could do it more privately (e.g. like before stepping on the mat, or even before getting up from his chair when called), if it's just personally important to him and not showmanship.
Sure, and thats the same for both exponents. Again, the same. Except the 10th Dan is showing less control (less than perfect at control at 37 seconds in for example) and less general co-ordination. Right...pretty vague that. How is it integrated? Does he practive techniques with the chucks on opponents then? Does he spar? What other training does he do that makes his chucks routine more martial? So this codified system is based on what? Traditional martial arts techniques that date from the days when the weapon was used in battle to the death? You are aware of the dubious historical history of the nunchucks? Does the 10th Dan have personal experience in using chucks for real? Did he ever train with or learn from anyone who did? What makes his system and routine (demonstrated with a pair of extremely modern looking all metal chucks!) a legitiate system and the freestyler, who is obviously far more skilled exponent, a mere gymnast? I don't rate the variables and conditions you refer to. He looks like he could take my head off. Easily. And here I agree with you. And I personally think that if they met and fought with nunchucks (pretty unlikely I know!) the freestyler would most likely do just that to the 10th Dan without getting touched himself. Again, just my opinion based solely on those two videos. If you have footage of the 10th Dan doing more martial training with the chucks then I'm quite prepared to reconsider.
Yeah, that was my thinking too. Though your point is well taken that we can't know what's really going in his head. (Though there were a couple of points at which I thought the answer might be "a rapidly falling katana.")
I'll probably take heat for poking fun, but... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f72CTDe4-0"]YouTube - Tom Lehrer - The Vatican Rag - now on DVD[/ame]
Short version: He'd probably tell you that we all need forgiveness. (long version would turn thread into a religion debate)
He's the only one that needs forgiveness - for his hakama (let alone his freestylin' sword nonsense).
A classic, with the then present and future Soke of HNIR performing Sasen. There's more in that one waza than in any XMA sword twirling. It takes literally YEARS of practice to perform that one technique at that level. What's being trained in that kata are not all observable to the causal observer. Yes, it's two steps and a thrust. But it's much more that... it's a microcosm of body mechanics. Best regards, -Mark
Back to Nunchaku - I found these two on YouTube: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5MdJXRSRfY"]YouTube - Bruce Lee's nunchukus for beginners[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZQbb2M1NSM"]YouTube - Bruce Lee's nunchaku training film[/ame] And, another freestyle video... even though it's got a lot of acrobatics and non-defense techniques, it looks to me (untrained eye) like the kid probably has a MA foundation in his training: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPhJ9xuQqcU"]YouTube - Double Nunchaku Performance[/ame]
I wonder if the guy in the double chucks was using "real" chucks? Besides, too much gymnastics going on also
I wonder if the guy with the double chucks was using "reality"? Besides, zero martial arts going on also.
I think that was the whole point. A figure skater can do things a that are useless to a hockey player, but that doesn't mean the figure skater is not skilled & tough. I can appreciate the art for what it is. It's not like abstract modern art... where a dropcloth from the studio floor can be out in a frame and sold for thousands of dollars.
The outcome might surprise you. I would put my money on the Hockey Player, but not all of them are fighters, and a figure skater might be in better physical condition. To pick up a woman and manipulate her body (I don't mean like a singles bar) several times during a performance (which can be quite long) and do the required acrobatics takes incredible stamina. Hockey players work in very short shifts. I wouldn't start a fight with a figure skater or a hockey player, and I think in a real fight against an out of shape middle aged man they would both fare well (Hockey fights have certain unwritten rules). But old guys do have a certain mental toughness - pushing through pain is something they are familiar with... at least, I am. Found a few other interesting videos (Looks like there is a whole series): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJPO9HaHvuo"]YouTube - Rick Tew How To Choose Nunchaku[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa8w8ASgblc"]YouTube - Rick Tew Nunchuku Figure 8[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuMaoQn29p4"]YouTube - Rick Tew Nunchuku Practice Part 1[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_VcHaxviqY"]YouTube - Rick Tew Nunchaku Practice Part 2[/ame]
