new kempo group

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by kempojosh, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    shaolinmonkmark, you post the FUNNIEST stuff LOL!!!!!!!!!

  2. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    kempodavid, glad i amuse you!

    kempodavid, glad i amuse you!
    Let me know if you ever want to chat!
    Take care.
    Marky mark
  3. fthl


    I was debating this thread at e-budo and they've banned me. I kinda invited them to ban me if they wanted to be really pedantic and childish and, err...well....they did. Oopse.

    If I sponsor a local koryu geek d'ya think they'll let me back in?

    I also asked where they all trained in the UK so that I could pop in if I was around and see what they did. Now I'll never know.... :cry:
  4. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    You got banned from e-budo for not following TOS as you failed to sign each post with your full name. Not really a hard thing to do for most people :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  5. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Your obviously feeling hard done by having taken flack on the forum for supporting a bunch of individuals with the most illegitimate grades ever seen. Kyu grades promote brown belt to shodan. Fake Sandan promotes new shodan to nidan on request from students. New Nidan with a pannel of 1st to 3rd Dans in other martial arts promotes his grading examiner to yondan. CONFUSED so were we!!!
  6. fthl


    Horribly off topic....but....

    You got banned from e-budo for not following TOS as you failed to sign each post with your full name. Not really a hard thing to do for most people

    guilty as charged....

    However in my defence I did use my name, and stated that I felt that 'they' were using the 'post your full name or else' argument as a defence against rational argument, as there was no other suitable way to defend an illogical proposition...

    I posted my full name, then forgot, then used only my first name as a protest and challenged you to get childish enough to ban me for not using my full name on every single post in every single thread... you did. This kind of prooves my point about the argument... would have been polite to send me a brief email saying that you had banned me.

    "Your obviously feeling hard done by having taken flack on the forum for supporting a bunch of individuals with the most illegitimate grades ever seen. Kyu grades promote brown belt to shodan. Fake Sandan promotes new shodan to nidan on request from students. New Nidan with a pannel of 1st to 3rd Dans in other martial arts promotes his grading examiner to yondan. CONFUSED so were we!!!"

    I'm not hard done by, I just wanted to stick to the debate, and not have petit 'you're cheating!' claims being used to divert attention. I feel justified that my arguments are sufficiently sound that you needed to take whatever excuse you could to shut me up. Bravo!

    I've dealt with the claims you have made, quite well I felt. I felt that your claims were unjustified. You are claiming 'fake' by your standards, which are not everyone's. I feel that the way to judge whether someone is a fake or not is by their ability, not by who gave them the grade.

    Rather than the individuals (I know only one) I supported the method by which some grades were given, because it is logical. From your persective you disagree in how they award or were awarded grades and therefore cast these down as being 'fake' or illegitimate'.

    My argument is that every single martial art has awarded grades in this way at some point in their history, and just becuase it is being done now, and not 300 years ago in japan or whereever does not make this a bad thing.

    Promotion from below should not need x-hundred years of history to validate it. Someone must sit at the top of the tree and must be put there by someone. Who was the first 10th dan? If he was promoted in his art by junior grades is he therefore fake?

    You cannot judge modern combination arts by old traditional standards. In this day and age it is ability that counts, not who your teacher's teacher was. Just because your teacher was good, doesn't mean you are. give yourself the grade you want, if you must, but if you cannot support that with your ability then you are going to come a cropper.

    the end of it is that traditional koryu arts are feeling threatened in the 21st century. This is seen by the arrogant 'it must be done our way or it is an illegitimate black belt'

    this is rubbish, this is awarding a grade becuase of history, not ability. I want my instructors to teach me something that will help me defend myself, I don't care if they tie their haks wrongly, or don't wear a gi or abuse the japanese, korean language etc. Tradition is a means to the end, not an end in itself.

    Other arts are coming through that are becoming more popular, the way of the classist martial artist is waning save for those that want an art that focuses on the history and tradition, and not practicality.

    I was not banned becuase I failed to adhere to TOS. that was just an excuse. I was banned because the board could not handle logical argument and the fact that at their core, their grades ultimately as illegitimate as everyone elses by their own argument.

    Hard done by? Vindicated more like.

    But still interested in where you train in case I am in the area. I judge standard by ability, not history you see.
  7. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Me? er why do you think I'm an admin? I didn't ban you.

    Like I said it's not difficult concept to understand, unlike trying to figure out how a Kyu grade can promote someone to Shodan :rolleyes: , the TOS says you have to sign your full name in your posts unless your username is the same.

    You agree to do this when you sign up. If a user over there doesn't go with the TOS they get banned, simple. Saying that it was used as an excuse by the admin team is pathetic to be honest.

    I can't see why an e-mail is needed. You agreed to the TOS when you signed up. You where aware of the rules and were asked by other members to sign your name. You ignored this so you were banned. How many times do you need to be told something?

    If you were that bothered about being involved in the debate then you would of followed TOS. You’re using the age old Troll tactic of accusing the accusers. You claim that others are trying to misdirect attention to another issue and then using that as an excuse to run off. You either have comprehension difficulites as you ignored TOS and requests to sign your posts or you got yourself banned so you wouldn't have to stay and discuss the subject.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  8. fthl


    Come on...I felt my post on the name thing was self explanatory. they used it as an excuse to avoid the truth and to avoid the debate before I even threw down the gauntlet to them...

    I agreed to their rules, I breached them deliberately after provocation so I am guilty as charged...but they were the ones who took the easy way out of the debate, not me.

    If they had really wanted to take the debate on they would have suspended me or given a final warning or something. I didn't ignore them, I attempted to debate them. They ignored me. I didn't run off...I was expelled.

    You can't hide the truth! The geeks are coming! Run hide! Buy an anorak...

    Why not a mail or pm to remind me of the rules eh? Unless the rules weren't important for their effect, but for the rules themselves. Only explaination, that and they were scared of me. Big scary fthl....wooooooooo.

    In the context of the challenge I laid down, and the debate leading to it, I won!

    Yay! Go me! :)
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  9. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Fighting ability doesn't equal legitimacy. Someone can still be a fake and be able to fight.

    Boxer who is a very good fighter claims he is teaching ancient Chinese fighting art of some sort but can not prove it in fact he is a fake. Now going by your standards he is on the level just because he can throw an punch? So does that make him a CMA teacher?

    I'll say it again this comes down to integrity not ability. My Systema instructor can handle himself but if he was claiming to run an Aikido school or teach an art with Aikido in its base then he would be making fraudulent claims as he has no Aikido experience.

    Oh what a load of rubbish. Do you really think what you do makes Koryu folks feel threatened, my god how arrogant is that!

    It's is about integrity simple as that.

    That's fine but why use Japanese terms and language? The only reason to do such would be to give a more legitimate front to the unknowing public ;)

    Do you really think Koryu is out to be popular? :rolleyes: Have you any idea what you have to do to train in something like TSKSR? The standards don't exactly gear themselves to popularity.

    You keep thinking that :rolleyes:

    You were banned because you ignore TOS. You were banned just like every other person who failed to sign their name after agreeing to the terms and being asked by members. I'm sure you would love to think you were special and that you caused that much trouble that a conspiracy was launched against you, sorry you were chucked out just like every other ignorant troll that's come onto e-budo before you.
  10. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Jigoro Kano invented the Kyu / Dan grade system. Was Kano the first 10th Dan? No, he never advertised himself as having a Dan Grade. Kano did have the old style certificates detailing his JuJutsu proficiency (the previous method of grading). The first ever 10th Dan was Yamashita, Yoshitsugu (Yoshiaki) (b1865-d1935). Yamashita was grade to 10th Dan by Jigoro Kano (himself being highly ranked via scrolls in JuJutsu). So there is your answer.

    Kempo is not a new style and the the students within the BKS are not masters/sufficiently experienced to hold a dan rank. How can they then give Dan grades out in this martial art? As kyu grades they have not yet fully grasped the basic techniques. For this reason they cannot accurately assess the skill level required of Dan grades? If you believe that the grades are not important and that persons should only be judged on skill alone, then why do the BKS give out Dan grades. I'm sorry if you disagree with me but I just can't see how a Dan grade given out by a Kyu grade can have any value.

    Again how can a kyu grade assess the ability of a more experienced person?

    I'm not trying to get at you, I'm just trying to understand.
  11. fthl


    Depends on what you are claiming to be. Are you claiming to be the head of a modern style or an age old one? I would concede that "Fighting ability doesn't always equal legitimacy"

    I'd agree he is not on the level.

    I'll say it again this comes down to integrity not ability. My Systema instructor can handle himself but if he was claiming to run an Aikido school or teach an art with Aikido in its base then he would be making fraudulent claims as he has no Aikido experience.

    We're diverting here from why the grade to what they are teaching. In this respect, if you say you are teaching a classical art then I agree with you, however if you say you are teaching a more modern combination art then I would have to differ.

    I think we'll have to agree to differ here my old son. It is in part about integrity, but not as much as is being implied and only in the representations of the art, not the grade.


    I use them for ease not for a sense of legitimacy. Yame is better on a mat than 'stop' or similar when we could be doing self defence stuff that uses shouts of stop or similar. 'time' is the only other thing I thought of using.

    Throw names in japanese are more descriptive and helps differentiate between techniques and help teach the ideas behind them, rather than 'hip throw 4' or 'leg sweep 6' etc.

    A rei sets peoples minds up correctly, sets the right tone.

    Gis - easy to get hold of. Less likely to rip than t-shirts and frankly, cheaper. give good support. A well thought out bit of kit imho.

    Haks - with a number of instructor grades on the mat it helps students see who is in charge for that session. They look cool as well :) And make you get your footwork right. Or your breakfalls and rolls if you don't...

    fair enough, but they are very defensive and critical of others. they can do what they want, and credit to them, but they can't apply their standards to others or expect to be held as the definitive point of authority on all martial arts and what is good and what is bad.

    Will do!

    Y'see...I don't think I am ignorant. I was attempting to debate and the rules were being used to avoid the point and to avoid me. the rules are mother. the rules are father etc. rules are their to promote an aim, not for their existence in themselves.

    Why have that rule? So everyone's identy is clear? Was mine not? Or is the rule there just because?

    there was no conspiracy...but there was a need to shut me up as what I was saying questioned the whole foundation of the argument against me...

    It is synonomous of the whole approach - My way or the highway... this is fine in your own little patch or dojo, but don't demand that the rest of us conform to your ideal.

    thanks for sticking with the debate by the way. Not so chuffed that you called me an ignorant troll though. that ain't very nice.

    still interested where you train, by the way.
  12. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Didn't call you an ignorant troll I said you got banned in the same way as the ignorant trolls before you ;)

    As for the rule thing over there, well it's a rule and I haven't seen them ever make an exception. If you don't sign your name you get banned. So you can't use that as a reason for them not wanting to debate with you, it doesn't hold water. If you were the only one to be banned then ok but you're not they do it with everyone who breaks TSO in that manner.

    As for training PM me :D

    Although I don't do a Koryu.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  13. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    Bujinkan Kokoro Dojo, Dewsbury, West Yorkshire. Come up and judge me as a person . :D
  14. kempo-kid

    kempo-kid Warning Dangerous

    Ok so my lineage maybe shakey In Your Ever so humble opinion. Your timeing is all off. And please don't call any of my my grades or my students fake. Without expressing the IMHO. accromyn, because at then end of the day that is all it is. Like was said on the other forum, I do not make money out of kempo, I also am referred children who have behavoral problems and phyiscal disabilities from Social services.

    1) So what if a group of students awared their sensei a black belt, please remember that phrase a black belt, not a shodan award a black belt.

    2) Why are you calling me a fake sandan? I was awarded that grade by a 6th dan who has since died (please don't say that is convienent becasue that is so disrespectful)

    3) In our association I can grade a 2nd dan if they are up to that required standard. So what its not "cricket" in your eyes

    I would say come and train with me but your'd proberlbly take it as a threat and not in the spirit of Budo

  15. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    It takes a lot of balls for anybody to sit and call another illegitimate...what about everybody worry about yourselves...
  16. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    As I said on e-budo, promotion from people not learned in the art of MA is not a 100% guarentee that you are a black belt. People place the ideal of black belt to that of instructor. If you are teaching using your black belt, then you are basically conning people out of pure teachings. Do all your students know this? Do the ones who tell you to take in problem children that you are someone who was promoted in such a way that is not considered correct as to being a instructor.

    I will not disrespect the 6th Dan as I have no desire to.

    That may be, but the crux of the matter is that you were told to go by your students to grade. Are they the ones that tell you what to do. Are you a free thinking human being or a automaton?

    I would come down and talk with you in your dojo if I can afford to travel. Discuss the student black belt in person so I can judge you... Not judge, make a clear and accurate account as to why. I am not judging the person, but the way you have become through what I see as dubious means. You may be a nice guy or a hot headed moron. But you are human after all, and that is where we can talk and walk away with a better understanding of each other.
  17. GenghisK

    GenghisK Jiu Jitsu Kempoka

    Interestingly I got threatened with banning for failing to put my real name at the bottom of a post, despite the fact that the second line of that post was "My name is....". A short while afterwards somebody who has never met or trained with me, or my sensei, called my sensei's club - which is very highly regarded amongst those who have bothered to go there "a sorry excuse for a dojo" (or words to that effect, I'm not going back to check) and nobody apparently raised an eyebrow.

    At that point, I decided that this was company I didn't want to keep I'm afraid and ducked out.

    On another point, if somebody invited me to come and train, I'd regard that as a friendly invitation to go and see or learn something interesting.

    Incidentally, I use Japanese terminology and etiquette in my (modern mixed style) Kempo dojo. The reason I do this is because it's what everybody else does, and I'd like my students to be able to turn up elsewhere and fit-in. Also, everybody likes a bit of ritual and formality. The same is true of certain techniques that I don't particularly like, but are commonplace. The fact that I teach Yoko Wakare and call it that doesn't mean I claim any special status in relation to whoever invented and named the technique. Similarly, if I use similar belts for my students to anybody else, it means that they can (for example) turn up at a Planetjitsu seminar and know who is about the same level as them, who is likely to be better, and who they need to be careful not to hurt.

    Immoliation - you clearly can't tell the difference between Warren Palmer (2nd Dan, graded by Ben Ledwick, balding brummie, my sensei), and Ben Ledwick (3rd Dan according to his late 6th Dan sensei, 4th Dan according to a panel of high dan grades from other but related styles, worrying resemblence to Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon). I've trained with them both, was graded to brown by the former, and may eventually grade to dan with that latter, they're both bloody good martial artists who I'm glad to learn from. BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

    By the way, what's an illegitimate black belt? One who teaches mediocre martial arts despite being from a long and respectable lineage? One who graded by a funny method but is regarded by other dan grades as good enough that they regularly invite him to teach their clubs? Or just one whose parents only met briefly?

    For that matter, what is pure teaching? The teaching of methods that have been unchanged since somebody first thought of them? The teaching of methods that have been refined, tested, and somebody after great thought have decided is the best way of doing something? Or is it simply a teacher trying his damndest to teach what he knows as well as possible?

    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006
  18. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    I don't beleive that one has to stay with one instructor or art in order to achieve black belt status. There are many martial artists that have over 20 years in the arts and don't where belts or just put on a white belt over and over.

    It is deceiving to teach an art under a mis-leading name when they in fact are not teaching that art but to think one is not worthy of of a black belt because their standards don't match yours is a bit off base.

    I think Kempo Kids system needs it's own identification. If it's a new system, then a new name is appropriate.
  19. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    As it was said over on e-budo, it is not ability but the credability of the belt. Already from that thread, 2 have left and 3 ID's banned. The entire thing has crossed over boards and is just getting on the insane. When asked to provide answers, it was not the actual answers people wanted to hear and so it gets ugly.

    It is time for these lot to let it lie and carry on being promoted from under and get told what to do by their own students ETC ETC ETC
  20. GenghisK

    GenghisK Jiu Jitsu Kempoka

    Just wanted to emphasise that.

    Last edited: Mar 16, 2006

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