Hi, anybody here knows about the energy of Silat. It is different from ki or chi, I read about it in a book named ''The complete Martial arts" by Paul Crompton on page 64. I have also read about it in many articles. Anybody here has an idea of it and its cultivation techniques? :woo:
this is something that is hotly contested, but no amount of reading or watching will explain it as well as trying it out. Gentlemen/Ladies, play nice now, ya hear?
There are many ways in which "silat people" try and get this type of energy, power, or whatever you want to call it. Sometimes through external Tenaga Dalam exercises, which primarily consist of many different breathing exercises while holding certain postures, etc... others thorugh certain shamanic rituals, where they claim to get powers by sacrificing animals, etc... others try to mix their faith and the silat and also claim to get certain benefits... The bottom line is this.... Keep it simple, and train HARD. There is no substitute for hard, physical conditioning and training. A lot of these other practices are excuses to not train hard, and have little to do with silat, and more to do with the old animalistic, shamanic Indonesian culture. In a time of crisis, you are more likely to survive by being physically fit and strong, than by trying to cultivate a mystical force field around your body. Unfortunately silat seems to attract a more people than other arts in the latter. (I'm not referring to you by the way, just speaking generally... ohh and Welcome to MAP!! )
One thing I have noticed is that in the Chinese martial arts whenever someone talks about chi (qi) they are almost always concerned with health i.e. practice qi gong for long life/health first and martial second. With respect to Silat whenever I hear people talking about tenaga dalam it is always in respect to martial application and rarely do I ever hear talk about health benefits of tenaga dalam. Silat practitioners seem obsessed with fighting only. It does not always have to be about magical methods of defending yourself……there is health, is that not important too?
Of any Chinese martial system I know of,the original purpose of the majority of their exercises that most nowadays call ch'i kung were to develop or enable the development of power.Health benefits were icing on the cake, Outlook/marketing changed during the last century,and some schools (T'ai Chi is a prime example) teach health type ch'i-kungs from outside the system,and don't teach/have their system's methods,while others tout the health bennies of their systems' methods. Forgive thy Silat cousins,Narrue.Most people practicing are younger rather than older,so the idea of health when you have it isn't usually a large concern. The idea of different,or mysterious power you can use in application people find intriguing. As Wali said,one must train hard.And that's probably what'll really keep one healthy,too.
? Oxygenation? personally, i think not. helpful, yes...primary...no. emotional balance and confidence is what leads to competence or ability, provided that you have done the groundwork and have the coordination. breathing and stretching is helpful, of course. muddled issue nontheless....is this a discussion about health or fighting prowess? if it's health then you are right, if not, then i am. peace.
Tenaga dalam = Qi ... imo. 1/. Develop & know how to use your body core, 2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1, 3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving. It's tenaga dalam or Qi. Salam Krisno
I'm with Steve Even if you want to go down the "spiritual" route for explanations it's there in the holy books, its in the Bible (Genesis), it's in the Koran (sorry I can't rattle off which Surah): God breathed life into Adam. So, Breath = life. Even the Vedas will confirm this about prana. So I guess every time we breathe we should remember this gift, for as long as we have it. Confidence is useless without breath.
AnakMurid, Without breath you die. it is a given. All things are subordinate to it. That being the case, confidence comes first, effectively. same thing with gravity. it is a given. therefore the importance of... '1/. Develop & know how to use your body core, 2/. Know the relationship between skeletal structure and gravity (the Qi coming out of the earth into feet, legs, body etc.) ... which ties in with number 1, 3/. Maintain the integrity of 1 & 2 while moving.' I agree wholeheartedly with Kembang Alas, biomechanics are a crucial element of Qi. so is breathing. and self confidence. i dont think religions or philosophies have anything to do with it, except as it affects your level of confidence....i.e if you consider yourself an agent of "God" this is liable to bolster your esteem and sense of purpose. peace.
I agree, body mechanics play an important part as well, no doubt about that. The reason I put in religion is that the original thread was looking to some mysterious force, and rather than mystify with unproven theories on Chi, etc, it seems obvious to suggest looking towards the source of everything. I know that I do not have the knowledge or power to create myself, to create matter to create energy. That's my point, there is no mystery in it, the answer is in the books. However, that is not to say that physical exploration is not valid, of course it is and it is our duty to expand our knowledge of our universe as far as we can take it, but in doing so, remember that the creator is expressed in the created order. On breath: Although we consider that in order to live we must breathe, should we not also use breath when directing intention when hitting? Even a white belt karateka understands the importance of breath when hitting. You would not suddenly breath in while hitting, or breathe in then hold your breath while hitting. Do you notice what happens with your breath when you are using/developing the core? Where does the breath go, do you use your belly, your chest, do you contract when you exhale, do you constrict, is the breath light and easy, is it hard and strained, when you have worked too hard physically with too much tension, are you out of breath? What happens when you are out of breath? Is the release of breath soft, or is it aggressive? How does the release of breath affect your state? I think the connection between breath and movement is often taken for granted or overlooked. How much breath to have inside when you have exhaled on hitting, when do you breathe in, how much is enough when you breathe in, can breath be connected to intention during hitting when you exhale (let go of breath) to the strike (let go of the strike and pass the force into the target)? That's what I am exploring at the moment (along with other things) tension/relaxation in relation to breath, and finding efficiency. I am getting this wrong in my own training, which is why I put forward emphasis on breath here. I claim no knowledge about anything, just putting forwards questions for debate, so I may get some pointers... Thanks to all on this board as it helps me to explore and crystalise ideas, or find new ones for training. One last question: in defining self confidence, which self or which part of the self is this? Often when people feel vulnerable, shy or exposed they say such things as "I feel self conscious" but surely if they were conscious of the real self, this would not be the case? If one were to have real-self consciousness this is to have real self confidence? Any thoughts? Any way, I am babbling, after all I am just a baby exploring outside my crib. Peace to everyone.
Paeans to Air Yes, I agree. I said "oxygen", and this is the vital essence of air. Without it, yes, you die in a few minutes (which means it comes first in my book) but most people don't really breathe particularly well, and that's what we are talking about here. The old adage is that those breathe with the throat don't know, and those who really understand breathe with their toes. Physically, this is nonsense, but the point is that deep breathing offers something shallow breathing does not. If you have a car that is designed to run on high-test gasoline and you feed it regular, it will operate, but badly. The key to prana, ki, chi, tenaga dalam, etc. is breathing. All the disciplines I have seen that involve these speak to proper breathing. They might not always agree at to what "proper breathing" is, but they all address is as vital. Biomechanics and confidence are indeed also very much a part of it. Spirituality is somewhat harder to dissect, but since there have been people who are able to manifest the same effects of these energies without the spiritual belief, then that isn't necessary per se. Might make it easier, but it isn't a requirement.
It's like Lego building ... Without understanding breath one does not have a place to start. However if one's practice is limited to breath alone then Redantkuntao is correct in that one should not expect fighting prowess from this requirement alone. To explain my perspective, it is impossible to develop/nurture one's skeletal, muscular & neurological system (body core) to the maximal development for speed, strength and pliability allowing for proper function of dynamic muscular tension, without the correct application of breathing. Breath is a type of Qi as is food. There is the Qi energy that emanates from the earth (gravity), and then there is what is called one's pre-natal Qi or so I'm told . Using a modern analogy, it's like lego .. one starts with a brick, but if one wishes to build a castle, one needs many bricks, all with specific application but with a view to the bigger picture. Salam, Krisno P.S. Know where you want to get to. For most people, I think it's important to have the plan of the castle too, and not build ad-hoc!
Actually... knowing how to control your breath can help a person retain emotional balance, leading to increased confidence.
Breath dose not come first. In Tibet lung (qi) is described as a wild horse which can only be controlled by a skilled horseman (mind). Therefore functioning of the mind is put first. If someone really could master their mind then they would be truly in control of themselves. Spirit > mind > breath > body........in that order
Philosophy is a bit like a wild horse! Yes indeed mind can be first, but (with all respect to the Tibetan's), one could also argue that the dawning of consciousness of self, the ego comes first ... however, it's a bit like saying that if you wish to understand Pure Mathematics, you should know the nature of numbers first. It would be reasonable to expect that. Having said that, it is not a requirement to know the nature of mind in order to cultivate effective power of the type displayed by a pesilat, (the nature of which was the original theme of discussion). It is important to have the aim to achieve with some certainty of success, and while it's not about the complete understanding of the nature of mind, it is (as Narrue says) a function of the mind! Salam, Krisno P.S. Another thing to consider is that it is NOT silat per-se that has the inherent power, but the pesilat, the person performing the silat. In the end it is irrelevant whether its Krav Magda, Karate, Taiji, Xing Yi, Cimande, Western Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Ba Gua or Tong Long ... they are just vehicles on the path to fighting prowess and hopefully one can get past that stumbling block and become a little more aware .
Breathing Technique Tell you what, just for an experiment, stop breathing for six or seven minutes and then revisit that notion .... He said, grinning ....
I agree, body mechanics play an important part as well, no doubt about that. The reason I put in religion is that the original thread was looking to some mysterious force, and rather than mystify with unproven theories on Chi, etc, it seems obvious to suggest looking towards the source of everything. I know that I do not have the knowledge or power to create myself, to create matter to create energy. That's my point, there is no mystery in it, the answer is in the books. However, that is not to say that physical exploration is not valid, of course it is and it is our duty to expand our knowledge of our universe as far as we can take it, but in doing so, remember that the creator is expressed in the created order.' AnakMurid, striving to expand one's understanding of their own comsomology is a venerable tradition and on that count i prefer to avoid 'seeking far for what is near'. On breath: I think the connection between breath and movement is often taken for granted or overlooked. How much breath to have inside when you have exhaled on hitting, when do you breathe in, how much is enough when you breathe in, can breath be connected to intention during hitting when you exhale (let go of breath) to the strike (let go of the strike and pass the force into the target)? That's what I am exploring at the moment (along with other things) tension/relaxation in relation to breath, and finding efficiency. I am getting this wrong in my own training, which is why I put forward emphasis on breath here. I claim no knowledge about anything, just putting forwards questions for debate, so I may get some pointers...' breath is a vital factor in the complex mix of factors that is called qi/prana/tenaga dalam. although i suspect that 'correct' breathing has a few benefits, both short and long term, in a martial or physical context the main thing that it does is stabilize the lumbar vertebrae when recieving or emitting force. this 'stabilization of the waist' effectively links the upper and lower body. as an illustration, observe a human skeleton. the only connection between the upper and lower body is the lower spine. therefore the majority of the support in the 'dantien' is accomplished by the large number of muscles there, which can be mobilized by correct breathing technique. to clarify, i am speaking mainly about 'low and compressive' breath. strikes and other exertions are accompanied by short, sharp exhalations that have a sound somewhat like a snake hiss or air leaking out of a tire. this is only one method of 'correct' breathing. 'Often when people feel vulnerable, shy or exposed they say such things as "I feel self conscious" but surely if they were conscious of the real self, this would not be the case? If one were to have real-self consciousness this is to have real self confidence? Any thoughts?' I think you are crossing the line between metaphysical ideals and actuality. what people mean when they say 'i feel self concious' can be translated to ' i am scared and doubt my ability to handle this situation.' it is a euphamism (sp?). in a nutshell, self confidence is being optimistic about the outcome any given event and your ability to influence or affect it positively...i.e. 'win'. in martial arts, self confidence means that you do not have a mentality for defeat. Peace.
