Munich massacre

I've been thinking. There were 11 hostages and 8 terrorists initially. Almost all the hostages were in excellent physical shape in their prime (Olympic athletes and their coaches, duh!), four were wrestlers or wrestling coaches, three were weightlifters and the remaining four were a running coach, a shooting coach, a fencing coach and a weightlifting judge. Aditionally, they were all Israelis, and some of them have been in the army (possibly trained in Krav Maga).

So here we have 11 strong guys in excellent physical shape and 8 armed terrorists in close quarters. We all know the result: all the Israelis were killed. Two during the break-in, the others were herded into helicopters and killed by the terrorists during the botched German rescue attempt.

Does anyone know how many of the killed hostages were at some point in the IDF? It would be a serious blow to the credibility of IDF Krav Maga training if it turns out that like half of the hostages were in the army and none of them managed to take a gun from any of the terrorists. The mayor of Munich stated at the time that he was "very moved by the dignity with which the Israelis held themselves, and that they seemed resigned to their fate", in other words they were taken like sheep to the slaughter.

And before anyone here accuses me of being insensitive, or being some kind of shaolin-ninja-wannabe keybord jockey, I'd like to say that I think the point of martial arts training is being able to defend yourself in face of overwhelming odds, even when faced with real danger for the first time in my life. If I'm trained in let's say Krav Maga, I fully expect to be able to disarm a guy with a gun or a rifle or a knife, and if that's too much to hope for then there's not much point in training in martial arts for the purposes of self-defence, is there?

 

Takeshi,

This is a joke, right?

 

Dude. You need a hobby. Or a girl.

 

Who, me?

 

naw, the OP. Sorry.

 

You're joking, yes?

A big hint for you, unarmed combat training is for when both you and the person you're fighting is unarmed. Doesn't really work if they've got guns, and friends with guns. If you want to test this I've got a paintball gun and lots of free time.

 

Bunny, if it happens, please video and post it on MAP later...

 

So all those techniques for disarming oponents are useless? I'll just get a gun then. Bang bang, 20 years in the dojo equals 20 minutes at the shooting range. Right?

In my first week at Krav Maga, I asked to be in a disarming exercise where I held the gun. It was a water gun (we use both water guns and prop guns) and all four times I missed, lost the gun and ended up on the wrong end of it. The guy was so fast and he was only two months in. I got to choose where to point the gun and the distance (as long as it was in arms' reach) yet he took it away all four times, without getting wet.

So that got me thinking that guns aren't all that invincible at close quarters and I honestly don't see how I could've kept the gun in a similar real situation.

 

Have you much expirience with guns? What I am refering to, is that there are also close quarter techniques for using guns.

 

My feeling would be,

A. If I go I'm going to be killed

B. If I fight them I'm probably going to be killed.

At least I'd have SOME chance fighting back.....rather die like that then like a sheep at slaughter.

 

Not much experience. I was in the army for a year but I was in the engineer corps so the small arms training was pretty rudimentary I guess.

Still, if I was faced with a situation where my life was threatened by a gun, I'd expect more from myself than just going along with it and dying.

 

Thats more than me.. I watch alot of discovery channel though

For sure. If you know your gonna get shot, may as well try something.

 

What a rediculous thread.

 

Hi All,

This is a VERY complex issue but some factors...

Practice is great - with fake guns or even for those in the police or military with Simunition or some-such... BUT it's still a million miles away from a REAL GUN (BIG and very very frightening).

Yes, I hope that in that situation I would fight - but it is SOOOOOOO easy to think, wait for the right time, wait for the right time, wait for the right time.... And sadly the right time doesn't come.

The 'bad guys' are (probably) working as a team with a mission plan and have practiced what they are going to do in order to achieve their objectives.

The 'good guys' are individuals without a plan.

The 'bad guys' are willing to kill and willing to die.

The 'good guys' probably have never killed anyone and DON'T want to die.

There are many many more factors - but it should be noted that a bit (or even a lot) of training in KM or Systema or XXX-ART is NO GUARANTEE

Here's hoping that nobody who reads this information ever needs it and if anyone ever needs it they have read it...

All the best.

Robert.

 

There's the flaw you see.

Not to mention that a water pistol gives a longer delay between starting to squeeze the trigger and firing than a well-calibrated pistol.

In hostage situations you are much more likely to survive, and not get any other hostages killed, if you co-operate.

 

What I'm thinking right now is this:

If being able to defend against weapons is so far-fetched that I'm being labeled as an idiot for even suggesting it ought to be possible, then there's no point in any self defence art. Simply get a gun.

Prancing around in pyjamas is all good but being able to save your life is better. Krav Maga is being marketed as something that will give you a shot against an armed opponent and so far everything I've seen of it confirms this, yet people think I'm an idiot for wondering why those guys didn't fight to save their lives.

 

are you familiar with AK-47? It makes you 200th degree grandmaster in whatever MA you like. No MA will help you overcome it.

 

Yes (but not by much), but I knew I was in a disarming exercise and knew exactly what the guy would do. Imagine having surprise on your side as well.

I don't know if you've seen Krav Maga disarming exercise, but I think you'd have to be psychic to pull the trigger before the target clears the line of fire (if he's in arms' reach)

 

you aren't an idiot.

If you find yourself on the wrong side of a gun, by someone with the intent of killing you, you will lose. The terrorists wanted the Israeli athletes to die.

If someong is mugging you, you might have a chance but more likely not.

 

I've put it apart, cleaned it and put it together maybe a hundred times.

But really, try how quickly you can grab the barrel and push it 5 inches to the side, while twisting your body to clear the line of fire. That is if you can reach the barrel. And once you've done that, you've got one arm free and the other guy is holding the rifle with both hands... and pointing it at nothing.

I'm really not psyched about martial arts being some magic pill that makes a guy invincible, but it really only takes grabbing the barrel and pushing it 5 inches to the side. That's enough to give you a chance.