Well seems like ur arguing that judo is no less effective gw wise on the street than bjj. What about when people grab your clothing? In my experience this happens a lot in fights Yes and does that mean you have to use a fancy judo throw when a punch will suffice? Most peole normally grab ur clothes before they hit u. How many times u practiced throwing someone when they trying to hit u? Normally u wait around getting a good grip then look for opportunity to unbalcnce oppenet. The no-gi comps you talk about don't have striking and the majority of the fancy moves, distance closing and takedowns won't work either in a situation where someone is trying to "punch your face in" well if u consider distnace closing moves fancy then how can u seriously sit their and say judo moves most of them hell of alot fancier wud be effective on street? plz Then by your arguement, what use is a submission only no-gi BJJ comp? A bjj practicionier is more likely to have trained and sparred with punching allowed.Therfore logically will have a much better chnace in the real situaition . Tht was the point i was trying to make. Were as most judo guys spend time learning how to tutrle up and wait for ref to save their ass. I have spoken to people who have been in no gi bjj with punching allowed, ive seen some promo vids for clubs who actively use it as a selling point. bjj is used in value tudo matches bare fist, again if largely depends on training, if u train purely sport bjj then theirs no way it cud be any better prepration than judo. I agree that judo guys will be hell of alot more effective throwing but at the same time bjj guys will be a hell of alot better at striking if they need to end it quickly on ground. If u cud execute the basic throws well on multiple oppents one after the other then good for u. I for one in a real situaiton wud struggle to throw one person and most liekly wud end up looking like a drnk brawl where i either fall on top of guy or hes on top of me. I cant just turtle up and hope hell go away It was a joke belittling BJJ-ers habit of jumping guard to get people down Well it works on people who don't know grappling, why dont u ask royce gracie about that its even funnier when you guard a judo guy in randori and he doesnt know how to break it.
The only BJJ school I know that do strikes are auctually MMA schools that teach BJJ. Can you point me towars a bjj school that teaches striking along with bjj? a link would be cool. I will say this again: A striker cannot out grappler/k.o. a grappler in a grappling situation. Turtling in the street is stupid and every one knows it. Even if you have little grappling knowledge your better off trying it than turtling. Some one grabbed your clothing (meaning their close to you), and that also means their hands are tired, your punches are going to be less effective and you have a change to end the fight with a thow. Why are you going to punch them? Have you ever tried to thow some one who did not do judo? It's fun, you get to try all kinds of exotic thows on them. They know jack aobut kuzuishi. If you lucky when they grab you they will push or pull on you...ippon and your in dominate position. Did you watch the first UFC? Roice Gracie did not do much of any stirking, mostley all grappling i would say around 95%. He won the tournement with 95% grappling aginst trained strikers. If I rember right they were the top of their field too.
If you doubt a good throw, then get thrown but remain tense and don't attempt to break it, as most people without martial arts experience would. Hurts, believe me. Then think of taking that off of the mat and onto the concrete. I remember in jiujitsu one time after a throw I took a bad fall, landed right on my kidneys. I just lay there for about 10 seconds, and the rest of the class was bloody painful. That was on the mats. I'm a 19 1/2 stone guy, I can take my licks, but that just slayed me. Remember that a throw is your body weight and gravity meeting with the hard floor, a much more opwerful thing than a punch or kick will ever be. What do you think will be more painful, a kick to the hit or being dropped from a throw on your head. I know which one I would rather! Sure, a throw is a much harder thing to get in than a punch, but if you know what you are doing, setting up an inexperienced fighter shouldn't be too taxing. Against multiple attackers? Any grappling is going to fall shorter than striking arts here. However, doing a striking art does not mean you can take on 4 guys at once either. Even two guys intent of doing you in would be a challenge. If they are both trying to hit you at the same time, thats a difficult situation to control, and I would think that your only hope is any conditioning work you have done to get your body used to taking blows.
Ive done MA for 6 years coming up. wu gong, which is alot to do with balance. and ive done judo. i have a couple of things i want to say after reading all this... (took a good 10 min i myt as well reply). My mate who is very well trained will throw an experianced judo student without using his arms... He will take 3 people down to the floor at the same time if he's on the floor. this sounds like bragging but im just trying to state, judo isnt about your arms, its about your centre of gravity and your opponents and how to take over theirs. YOU DO NOT NEED A GI on your opponent to be able to throw them, and YOU DO NOT NEED to wait for a chance to take your opponent off balance. if your good at judi, you know how to take someone off balance. the last thing you want to do in a brawl on 2 or 3 on 1 is fall to the floor. advantage of judo: All the throws are differant, for diff situations. if some1 is coming at you or if some1 is tryin to punch or kick you, or if some1 is trying to hold you from behind or lock you, they all come in handy. once you get good at a technique, the second you contact their waist (or wichever other body part youve learnt how to work with) you will throw them. most deffinatly will fracture or break bones on concrete... (aswell as squashing groin as all judo students would know). eg: i took on my mates (mucking around). they went pretty full out, just no striking. i could easily manipulate them into falling or hitting eachother. mainly through locking 1 and taking him as hostige, throwing his weight into the other person (human sheilds r great). i beat them both.. 1 is built, n the other has done TKD for bout 8 years. martial arts like TKD rely alot on balance to pull off a strike, so against judo its not the best technique. most street fighters that dont know a MA will through their weight around, no questions asked, so thats another advatnage for Judo students. lastly, if you study enough to know weakest parts of the body and how to control your own weight, THEN you can try grappling in a streetfight. eg: 2 on 1. Me n a mate who did Karate for 5 years, took on some1 in my class. from lying down he dragged my mate down into a headlock... so well, that not 1 part of his body could help to get him out. he had 1 leg left, no doubt, he managed to take me down and pin me in the same situation... not a thing i could do. WITH ONE LEG.. how embaressing. I think if your good at balancing and know alot of throws, then you would do ok in a street fight without striking. but, if your REALLY good, then you may be able to grapple. oh BTW, judo wasnt suppose to be a death art? judo was some of the best technique taken. the majority of other breakfalls etc were put into a diff martial art etc.
well guys ive alreqady agreed with what u said that if u cud get a good throw in on multiple enmies then it wud be effective just that it seems easier to strike. Ive being doing judo for 2 months now althouhg im kk i wudnt back myself to be able to throw anyone easily ma training or not. If someone grabbed me chnaces are id panick and strike whetver way i cud not hip throw him. I cudnt care less what a 4th dan balck belt or someone whos been doing it for 5 yrs can do just what i cud do with the judo ive learnt. Becoming effieicnt in any ma will help and you can argue all day long about if u were really skilled you cud do this and that. As far as judo gw goes i havnt learned anything other then one hold that i wud consider useful. Where as ive done a little bjj and im fairly confident in a one on one gw with someone who doesnt know grappling. Ive already beaten green belts mianly because they turn back as i mount and have had some amusing encounters with balck belts who spend their 3 min randori time trying to break my guard. If i was to take my bjj knwoldege away and just be left with judo id have no better chnace graplling someone on the street than ur average drunk. I know i havnt been doing it long and that if i were to do 3-4 yrs id have a different opinion. The point is i recemmneded bjj for self defense ahead of judo, after watching a few videos and practing it for about 2 weeks im much for compettent in gw than i wud ever be in judo even in a years time. Not to mention most things ive learnt have been relevnt. Now i do judo and beat people who have been doing it for 6 months yr etc... after 2 weeks bjj, hell my first lesson i beat all the white belts who were told to take it easy on me by my instrutor. Im not bragging just telling it like it is my bro and m8 did exactly the same thing. Judo stand up skills are amazing and ive got nothing but respect for the high belts in class and ive never even come close to thrpwing them but if its gonna take me 5 yrs to get to anywhere near that standard then im not gonna recommend judo for self defense when u can become a decent thrower and much better grappler in 2 yrs of bjj. Same argument i had with m8 when he told me how effective wing chun was and how u cud become amzing at striking from trapping range, maybe after 5-8 yrs of chi sao practice, why not just learn a few boxing puhces for self defesne instaed. If u watch animal day vids theirs a few guys who know judo, i didnt see a signal decent throw that wud kkock out oppent from any of them when guy was just running at them? Specially surprised when they did circle training as you wud exect them to use the guys momentum to throw him. The gw royce did in early ufc is not what a judo guy wud have done its more systematic where as in judo ur left to piece togther everything urself, and in one of the fights he beats a judo who guess what gave him his back. He also has to trainagle, arm bar, choke out people when their trying to hit him something bjj specialises at. sorry for long post kinda bored and got nothing better to do
The reason you'd panic and not try and throw someone is that you haven't been doing judo very long. I know you don't want to have to get to a 4th dan before it works but you've only been doing it 2 months. Within about a year I'd say you'll have basic but applicable standup grappling skills. I don't see how you can only have learned one useful hold since the vast bulk of BJJ and judo bread and butter techniques are the same. In groundwork, yes. But then, in BJJ that's your main focus. In judo it's only a part of training, so of course they're not going to be as good at it as BJJers. Sorry but that's just illogical. You can't claim that judoka won't be good at throwing in self defence unless they've been doing it for at least 5 years, then claim that BJJ will make you a decent thrower in 2 when they use the same moves and practice them less. Whereas the BJJ throws that are the same but trained less would do this? Judo throws can be very powerful, and certainly have serious damage potential if they go right. However they are very complicated techniques with a lot that can go wrong in their application. But even if all you do is put someone on the floor without causing any real damage, that still puts you in a good position to get away or add more damage if necessary. In a multiple attacker scenario where you don't want to hang around, it doesn't matter too much if the throw doesn't put them through the concrete. OK. Firstly, You're not Royce Gracie. Mentioning one fight that someone at his level won against a judoka proves nothing. I bet Ricky Hatton could take most amateur level thai boxers, does that mean muay thai is worse than boxing? No, it's just that Hatton is leagues above them. Plus Royce has been beaten by a Judoka i.e. Yoshida, and though it's controversial as to whether he was actually out, Yoshida was obviously dominating the fight. Secondly, Judoka actually do very well against BJJ guys in submission grappling comps, though this is more to do with there being more competition, the judo rules are admittedly worse suited for such a situation. Thirdly, there was a guy at my old judo club who did BJJ for 2 years, and although his groundwork was good, he wasn't blowing everyone out of the water like you apparently are. I put up a good fight against him with only a few lessons under my belt, and in standup I actually beat him by reversing his throw attempt and then applying a guillotine choke from a rear mount. Although I do agree that some styles are better than others, there can still be a lot of variation between individuals, as our examples show. Personally, although I don't think judo is the best art ever, I would prefer it to BJJ for a multiple attacker situation because it's better rounded. Escaping is far more important in that situation than being able to finish someone off, so I would want to use grappling for takedown defence and for getting up when I fall.
BJJ = Basicley Just Judo They were told to take it easy on you and you think your the all might for beating them? Again, what people do in competition is not the exact same thing they will do in the street.
This is very true. I've been training Judo for about 6 yrs and BJJ for about 4 (with a few breaks) and what Soul is saying is in complete contradiction to what I've observed. Timmy, do you mean an RNC and not a Guillotene. I can't see could you could apply a guillotene from the rear, and besides Guillotenes are illegal in Judo randori because they manipulate the head I got DQ'd for applying one from the guard once :cry:
Don't RNCs manipulate the head as well? Maybe guillotine was the wrong word, but it definitely wasn't an RNC. It was the one where you wrap one arm round their neck, clench a fist with it, and then use your other hand to press against that fist, thus applying pressure on the neck. I assumed this is what a guillotine choke is, having not been told the correct term for it. I once tried to apply this choke from the guard and I got told off because it looked like a neck crank. That's the one occasion where the rules of judo annoyed me, I wasn't even trying to use an illegal move.
I've heard my neck crack from guillioten chokes. RNC minuplates the neck, not the head. I have a few rules I would like to see thrown out of judo comp....
First of all i want to clear something up im not saying im right and eveyones wrong, im just giving my opinion from what ive expereinced. On the whole the replys have been good and made some valid points and i apprecaite the input. As far as me thking im all mighty what posts were u reading? they told to take it easy on me first lesson and lost, guess same applies to green belts and the white belts i beat now, they must be letting me win. Afterall im sure green belts like tapping to some white belt who doesnt even own his own gi and hasnt offically even got a belt. I wonder why they only let me win on ground? and always throw my ass hard stand up? strange dont u thk Seriously though if u started judo with no graplling expereince but a few bjj moves u learnt from watching ma fights and tapes n lasted 2 mins vs anyone with 6 months exp ud be happy. Also keep in mind my little bro and m8 did exactly the same thing. All this comes down to at the end of the day is me recommeding bjj for slef defense from my personal expereince. I just feel its more relevent and a better approach to gw than judo. I luv judo and love the competitive aspect and persoanlyl i strive to be complete and become good at stand up. Well if u have to master 40 diff throws in judo over 5 yrs while some bjj guy works on about 5 in 2 i thk hell be kk in doing those basic throws to a decent standard obviosuly judo guy gonna be better. Thats was the logic i was trying to go on. The point is i dont thk u nessarily need the extra stand up skills in this situation at the expense of better gw. Also most top judo guys only use about 4 -5 throws yet waste time learning loads, how many judo throws wud actaully be effective on a consistent basis in a self defense situation? Id rather know a few basic ones and be efficient in them and learn loads from a purely sd perspective. Your right though u cant put a time limit on how long it will take to be able to use throws u learn on street hell some people may never master it. The situation this thread strated about is extremely difficult to deal with and i strongly belive whther u like it or not ud most likely end up on ground where bjj is superior to judo IMO. Im trying to be realistic as possible and trying to avioid id do this throw or that strike if guy did this since it wud inevitably be messy. Seriously though what do u guys thk about ur chnaces of not going to ground are in this situaition? Im not saying just give in and just accept their no other way just be prepared for worst. persoanlly i adopt jkd apparoch and wud try to be efficient striking ,throwing and grappling. From reading ur replys and points u guys made id say ive become alot more open minded in regards to seeing judo as sd art but i still bak bjj. Maybe after some more expereince in martail arts in general ill chnage my view.
Well the last thing you said, you inevitably will end up on the ground, is one of the things i disagree with. BJJ you learn well to do GW, Judo you learn well to stand. no matter what the situation, all people would prefer to stand up than be on the ground, because of kicking etc, which is inevitable even if you are really good. the thing with judo is that you learn to keep yourself standing, not just putting down your opponents. would you prefer to learn to stand or learn to fight if on the ground?
I've beaten people with far more experience than me before, IMO it's just a personal thing. Yeah, but here's the thing. You're only talking about groundwork. Judo is a 50/50 split. But what 4 or 5 throws you prefer to use varies widely from person to person. I'm among the tallest at my judo club, and I find it very difficult to get underneath people, so I scarcely try anything more adventurous than o-goshi in randori, I prefer to use my legs to try and trip people. Someone shorter would have more luck with the lifting throws. You're contradicting yourself. One minute, all-out groundwork BJJ style is the way to go, rather than judo with its 50/50 split. The next minute, you're on about being proficient in all ranges. Judo has good enough groundwork to give you a big advantage over someone who doesn't understand it, and superior standup grappling skills to bjj to avoid being taken down in the first place. In a multiple attacker situation, you want to use groundwork to escape from underneath, not to ground and pound or apply a vast catalogue of submission techniques. You don't have to stick around and finish everyone off when you're attacked by more than one person.
OK, firstly, sometimes they do let you win if they're more experienced than you because they're trying to teach you rather than beat you. I pinned a black belt last night for this exact reason, she was providing me with some resistance but at the same time telling me what to do and not going all out. Secondly, even if you did win on the ground, it's hardly an earth shattering front page news story. They learn balanced grappling, you specialise in groundwork, and you beat them at your speciality. That's all it is. It doesn't mean judo has crap groundwork, but at the same time you have to make sacrifices. A boxer would probably own an MMA fighter in a boxing match, but the MMA fighter would still have good striking skills compared to most people, and would make up for it by also being competent in other areas.
This is what I was thinking. Its not about taking people to the ground, I doubt any Judoka would want to take the fight to the floor. Instead they'll use their ability to manipulate opponents, ie move one into position to block the attack of another
But what 4 or 5 throws you prefer to use varies widely from person to person. I'm among the tallest at my judo club, and I find it very difficult to get underneath people, so I scarcely try anything more adventurous than o-goshi in randori, I prefer to use my legs to try and trip people. Someone shorter would have more luck with the lifting throws. Most basic throws covered in BJJ can work on people of any size especially if their inexperienced, don’t see why you need to train in 40 different ones since im not and ever will be convinced that they are all applicable to self defence rather than earning ippons. I don’t think you need to learn and train in 40 ways to throw someone before you finally smarten up and realise you only needed 5 of them. You're contradicting yourself. One minute, all-out groundwork BJJ style is the way to go, rather than judo with its 50/50 split. The next minute, you're on about being proficient in all ranges. I’m not contradicting myself at all, if I had to choose between the two and recommend one for self defense id pick BJJ ahead of judo regardless of how effective u think your 50/50 throw and grappling is. Although id argue its not as 50/50 as you say and varies greatly depending on club. My JKD point is to emphasise my own thinking on the matter. JKD people don’t believe in styles, whether I choose BJJ or judo I will still inevitably be exposed to the weaknesses of both systems hence one of the reasons I train and do a lot of different styles and take what I find useful. If you want to limit yourself to judo or any style and are prepared to live with its weaknesses as a self defence then fine. I understand that not everyone has the option to train in a lot of different styles or wants to and therefore have to make difficult decisions in choosing one. Judo has good enough groundwork to give you a big advantage over someone who doesn't understand it, and superior standup grappling skills to bjj to avoid being taken down in the first place. In a multiple attacker situation, you want to use groundwork to escape from underneath, not to ground and pound or apply a vast catalogue of submission techniques. You don't have to stick around and finish everyone off when you're attacked by more than one person. First of all that’s what you think, I think unless you train your groundwork regularly and test it under pressure from someone trying to strike you then it isn’t enough IMO. Not all BJJ schools do this either but least you’ve got a more of chance of doing so as it won’t go against rules as again Judo is taught as a sport not a self defence in most cases. I prefer fighting on the ground definitely in a one on one situation I feel id have better chance winning rather than having to exchange punches. Mainly because people who don’t know how to grapple and deal with strikes on ground will panic and their natural reactions are not effective. Everyone’s got a punchers chance to some extent when standing up, same chance doesn’t apply to ground IMO. It all seems to come down to avoid going to ground and I am yet to see any style effectively claim to do this on a consistent basis in one on one fight let alone a multiple attacker situation. OK, firstly, sometimes they do let you win if they're more experienced than you because they're trying to teach you rather than beat you. I pinned a black belt last night for this exact reason, she was providing me with some resistance but at the same time telling me what to do and not going all out. Secondly, even if you did win on the ground, it's hardly an earth shattering front page news story. They learn balanced grappling, you specialise in groundwork, and you beat them at your speciality. That's all it is. It doesn't mean judo has crap groundwork, but at the same time you have to make sacrifices. A boxer would probably own an MMA fighter in a boxing match, but the MMA fighter would still have good striking skills compared to most people, and would make up for it by also being competent in other areas. LoL I can tell the diff between someone letting me win and not. If you still think they let me win then theirs no point me arguing with u. I have fought my instructor few times and other belts who give advice while I grapple, I do realise much to your dismay that there not going all out. Its individual basis some people want to fight others want to coach. You say I won because that’s what I specialise in? I guess I specialise in grappling after 2 weeks, wonder what happened to their supposedly 50/ 50 groundwork balance?. I only mentioned it to support my reasoning to choose BJJ ahead of judo as I feel it helped me a lot and has given me confidence on ground. Although I realised now that I shouldn’t of as its caused a lot of offence and can be considered too individual to be relevant. Most people I have spoken too do judo for anything but self defence, where as the motive behind taking BJJ is mainly self defence oriented. Therefore it makes sense that in general BJJ schools will place more emphasis on self defence as that’s what its consumers want. Therefore unless you’re lucky and your school does cater for SD more openly then your best bet has to be BJJ. The fact that law enforcement agencies and various self defence courses range from BJJ is enough proof and justification for someone to recommend it ahead of something mainly taught as a sport. You’ve got more of a chance of training for the situation doing BJJ regardless of how ineffective you may deem it. I would be surprised if I went to judo and my teacher said were going to work on multiple attacker scenarios. If someone came to me asking my advice on what they should take as self defence I’m not saying well take judo its a dangerouse MA mainly taught as a sport and if your lucky you might focus on self defence, even if you don’t I’m sure your figure a way to relate it and use it for self defence after a few years. Id even recommend akidio ahead of it I’ve pretty much said what I had to say and felt I’ve wasting enough time arguing over something that has little relevance to me since I study and really enjoy both. I hope this didn’t sound like a style bashing post as that is not my intention.This discussion seems to be a matter of perception of self defence and it’s pointless for me to continue it as were both not going to agree. If I were to post anything this long again I would just end up repeating myself.
You don't listen, do you. The throws are THE SAME. Yes, a taller person CAN make a lifting throw like ippon seionage work on someone shorter, but it's more difficult. Right, so now we're talking about judo vs JKD, are we? A judoka does still have groundwork and will be harder to take down in the first place. You said you have done 2 years of BJJ. BJJ as we know is specialised in groundfighting whereas judo is a more even split. Just because you can beat them on the ground doesn't mean you could beat them when you've got to get them on the ground first. Different law enforcement agencies and self defence courses use all kinds of different arts, so that proves nothing.
I agree. The local police department where I live train in Shotokan Karate... but that doesn't mean it's the be all end all of self defence.
Sorry if u misuderstood but i only did 2 weeks of bjj prior to judo and that from watching ma fights n tapes. Thouhgt i made that clear. Still thk if some art is used alot in self defense courses and other is primarily taught as a sport justifies its selection in my mind above it if you were to recommend it. Dont know why you cant undersatnd my jkd point emphsis which if you understood would show that i dont belive in be all and end alls, im tired of having to listen to weaknesses in bjj as a SD and you cover up ur judo weaknesses. I just dont want people to thk im stupid enough to thk any style is 100% effective and that im arguing why everyone shud do bjj lol
