Multi-style jiu jitsu seminar - my brief review

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Vince Millett, May 15, 2017.

  1. Vince Millett

    Vince Millett Haec manus inimica tyrannis MAP 2017 Gold Award

  2. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Thanks for sharing this - we're doing a similar thing with the MAP Meet so it's great to hear your observations

    A few thoughts / comments on kyusho from someone who does both TJJ & BJJ

    Kyusho / pressure points in TJJ are a physical thing. It's quite a study in its own right, but in TJJ there are times when you:

    1. Strike - difficult but doable vs a punch and straightforward vs grabs
    You should understand the different effect of hitting the middle of a muscle when it's expanding vs the tendons when a muscle is contracting
    If you do it correctly then they can make a particular muscle relax for and instant and help your grip escape for example. Striking the neck can lead to unconsciousness much the same as good head strike

    2. Apply pain in the direction of your attack which will generally delay their resistance

    3. Use kyusho/pain to take attention away from your "real" technique, actually BJJ uses a similar principle I think

    The key is that tough guys don't respond so much to pain alone, so kyusho should always be "icing on the cake of structural technique"
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    From the facebook discussion...

    I would massively disagree - in the first instance the likelihood of facing a weapon is much lower than ending up on the ground. Even if you don't want to take it to the ground yourself you may not get that choice

    Second, most weapon based defense is pretty awful so even if it is "covered" chances are it is not covered as well as most think. I was on a panel this weekend alongside fellow MAP resident Langenschwert and weapons came up and I was not a ray of sunshine in my description or assessment of the chances of taking on an armed assailant
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Nice write up! A very long time ago I trained with rosie, and she was excellent then, no doubt she's only gotten better since then!
  5. GenghisK

    GenghisK Jiu Jitsu Kempoka

    I would phrase that slightly differently - competent kyusho is not necessarily about pain. Various points can weaken grips, extend or bend limbs, modify balance, and so-on. Different people do respond to pressure points in different ways, and sometimes not at-all. It's not about "tough guys" and "pain" by and large.

    The second part I absolutely agree with - whilst there is always room for a few dojo "party pieces", for anything real-world or against meaningful resistance, kyushu should only ever be used within existing, competent and reliable martial arts technique.

    (As was taught at that seminar!).

  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I would phrase it FAR differently. Mechanical leverage properly applied, never fails. You can spend your time practicing what's reliable, or what may fail, and Murphy's law says it will. If you have that competent technique, you don't need kyusho. If you don't have that competent technique, kyusho won't help you.

    I know a multitude of pressure points which can do fun and interesting things to someone. Under pressure making an arrest or actually having to defend myself, I go for what's reliable every time.
  7. Vince Millett

    Vince Millett Haec manus inimica tyrannis MAP 2017 Gold Award

    As I mentioned in my article, I was neither fully convinced nor fully unconvinced by the admittedly very brief introduction to this aspect of jiu jitsu. We could definitely feel a couple of the points we played with.

    One issue for me is the precision required to apply some of these techniques in a real situation. Maybe after many years of practise. The idea that correct basic jiu jitsu technique is more important, however, is something I believe GengisK would not disagree with. The pressure point attacks should be the icing on the cake, not necessarily the "go to" move in isolation.

    Another issue is what techniques one can train without unnecessary harm to a training partner. A blow that shocks a muscle into spasm might be fine with a partner who has agreed to train robustly but a blow to the carotid for a knockout is another matter (actually, we did discuss in the seminar the potential medical implications of choking people out and I'd suspect choking is safer).

    The value of a seminar like this is that it's an opportunity to try some stuff, see what fits. Certainly if I ever discuss pressure point martial arts with anyone, I now have a better understanding of what is being talked about and have some basis for an opinion on what might or might not work is a real situation.
  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I see it differently - kyusho are a useful addition to mechanical leverage (note: not a replacement as you seem to suggest), but not appropriate in comps

    Just like any technical/mechanical aspect - all other things being equal the guy who uses kyusho will win

    They require training, developing accuracy etc, but so does anything

    Honestly it's a lot easier to strip a grip by striking kyusho than not. It's very straightforward to experiment/test
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I didn't suggest that at all. What I said was that successful technique won't require kyusho, and unsuccessful technique won't really be helped by it... Assuming you can get it to work.

    Again though, if mechanical leverage based graphing technique is successful, kyusho won't be necessary. If mechanical leverage based grappling technique is not working, kyusho is not going to help.

    But they're inherently unreliable due to individual variance, adrenaline, intoxication, chemical alteration, psychological dysfunction, etc. and often require incredibly precise placement which you are unlikely to achieve under your own adrenal stress.

    My points above stand. I've watched someone who was chemically altered and severely agitated take a chair to the face so his jaw was broken, hanging loose, and he kept going. You want to try again on the utility of kyusho? Because while something which should have knocked him unconscious and caused debilitating pain did not come even close to working, a double leg takedown, positional control, and a rear naked choke put him out. Nothing that I could have done to him would have been assisted by kyusho, and that is not an isolated case.
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Do you think that a mechanically sound technique could be re-inforced / augmented by kyusho (i.e. become higher percentage)?
  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That requires the assumption that it works successfully.

    I think their inherent unreliability due to a variety of aforementioned factors, combined with the precision required and thereby the difficulty in execution under stress, makes them effectively worthless, as does a court recognized use of force expert and former police college instructor who I train with about once a year. They're a cool party trick to show off in training but they're not even close to being worth the time which could be better spent on high percentage, highly reliable technique.
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  12. Vince Millett

    Vince Millett Haec manus inimica tyrannis MAP 2017 Gold Award

    One of the techniques we tried in the seminar was a armlock taking the person to the ground. If they were very strong and were resisting, there was a fairly simple technique to add a sharp amount of pain without significantly changing one's grip to encourage compliance. I think in this example you could argue that it raises the percentage a little. I've been taught pretty much the same thing in a different application of an elbow lock in BJJ.
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I agree that nothing is 100% and there are a lot of things taught under the banner of kyusho that are pretty low percentage. However, I've experimented with them a fair bit under pressure and I do believe that quite a few are additive and meaningful

    By way of an example I find it very reliable to land strikes from closed guard to the correct places on a grabbing/framing arm

    Those strikes are structurally the same as the pushes, grips, hooks etc used in core grappling techniques to remove the grips, break the frame &/or move the elbow across. They aren't very complicated to learn and achieve the same effect with a lot less effort so I don't see a downside

    I'm not a police officer so can't speak with direct experience, but I did learn kyusho from a long serving London police officer who also taught at Hendon - FWIW
  14. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That truism doesn't justify low percentage techniques.

    Are you telling me you've tried it on adrenaline fuelled, drugged up folks, who have significant clinical mental health problems? I know folks who have done so in significant volume and that's why those aren't taught here for police. Even high percentage ones with fail regularly in field use.

    First, there's a fairly significant difference between striking and pushing/pulling, even on a limb. You should know that. Second, see the above in regard to what environment you're doing that under.

    FWIW? Not much. You can always find at least one officer, or soldier or special forces operator who trains tai chi, magical death touch fu, and kitchen sink throwing. That does not make them recommended for use.
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I've not tried anything against drugged up crazies so I'm afraid I can't really speak to that - and apologies I was being trite with the police officer point as you brought it up

    Kyusho are not just pain they are physical, just as a brain shake knockout or choke is physical. I think we agree that they are not a panacea and with a few exemptions not particularly useful in their own right (although what use is an arm bar if you don't know how to set it up?)

    There is a difference between striking and pushing/pulling of course, that's the point I'm trying to make I think

    In many cases a strike can be done in exactly the same direction as grappling push or pull and the strike can be to a kyusho that has the added benefit of:
    a) causing a particular muscle to relax for a bit
    b) hurting the muscle etc

    Grip releases are a great example I think

    Perhaps, like any technique, sometimes a) and/or b) won't have a big impact, but given you're doing the structural movement as well I don't see why there's any objection (other than rules / hurting your partner etc)

    And in my experience they do repeatedly have a big impact - although given that I've only done this on the mat and I'm open to the limitations in certain more extreme situations like the ones you mention
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  16. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Hey,if you're gonna pick on TC folks then you gotta include Wing Chun!;)
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You won't find any that admit to training in that.....there are SOME standards!

    :evil: :D :)
  18. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Now now, if you're going to pick on Izzo you may as well do it by name :D
  19. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    It doesn't have to be that extreme for them to fail. One of the more common ones which was taught here was the peroneal nerve strike. It's no longer taught because things like simple intoxication, adrenaline, and mental disorders were causing them to fail even when perfectly applied, and that's a pretty easy one to pull off. I've never seen a leg sweep fail, and if you can properly pull off a leg sweep then the strike is really unnecessary. If you can't, then you need more time training the leg sweep, not a crutch which may or more likely will not work.

    Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying then Dunc :)

    But what we don't agree on is that they add anything really useful, especially given the training time required which could be better spent on other things. You have to have a whole host of things go very right for you in order for them to work.

    Well in the few specific cases like that I would say for the same reason as other "deadly" techniques; difficulty in training high frequency at a high enough level of resistance. If it's something like pushing at the elbow to collapse the arm where it's the exact same movement then the absolute limit of instruction I would give in it would be "hey, you might get lucky with this and poke a fancy magic point which makes your technique more effective. Don't count on that though."
    Also with striking Kyushu there's the issue with striking people not being terribly camera friendly which could be an additional factor in determining the outcome of a trial and since striking occupies a more limited portion of the use of force spectrum at the point I would justify having to strike someone I want something significantly more reliable.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Damn you lack of thank button!!

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