Mormonism

So the divine teachings can be altered according to societal norms?

Personally against it - potential loss of one innocent life is not worth it

 

To be clear it refers to a murderer commiting suicide to atone for his sin. However, it was a basis for the death penalty in Utah, corporal punishment for murder.

 

I'm personally against keeping hydrangeas alive for longer than they need to be. I know there are cases where there are gray areas and absolute guilt cannot be proven.. I get that, keep those guys in perm lockup until you can prove it and get rid of them. The other ones, the ones who openly confess, and are proud of themselves for it should be done with post haste. Why bother feeding, clothing, educating, entertaining etc. a person who has no hopes to contribute to society, using my tax money.

MOD Note.

Please do no use masked profanity, we are a family friendly forum. Thank you.

 

I've got to say that the Mormon missionaries who kept coming round our way a few years back were extremely polite and friendly. And even though I don't think they thought they had a hope in hell of converting me, they gave me a copy of their book of Mormon.

Even though I think it's a load of old codswallop, I accepted it. Even if you don't agree with something, it can still be interesting and sometimes useful to know a bit about it.

I never managed to read more than a page or two without cracking up laughing. It's like a really bad attempt to rip off the bible.

 

Xanth,

Why the hate on flowers?

 

So why is it now discouraged?

The point is NOT that things do not and should not change, the point is that something dictated by God is not up for debate. The fact it WAS done means at some point it was handed down divinely (assuming you believe that nonsensical story) and with no subsequent ammendum by God or the Angel one wonders where it came from?

 

They still have the death penalty in Utah. That hasn't changed. Shedding of blood for the remission of sin was never an official church policy. Here is an interesting article on it www.shields-research.org/General/blood_atonement.htm

 

HAHA yea i am horribly immature. I just find them kinda creepy after all i have heard/ Read about them. I avoid scientologists, hare krishnas etc as well. Though you are right. I do need grow up about this kinda thing.

 

Apparently it also refers to adulterers and apostates. The latter which was the main subject of the video.

Brigham Young's quotes on the subject are quite revealing...

So apparently if a member of the church sins so terribly that it is unforgivable...if he/she won't take their own lives then their fellow members should take their lives for them.

Brigham Young was quite a scary fellow.

That's the official claim of the LDS at least. Funny you should mention that. Remember Mark Hoffmann who bombed two people in 1985? He hinted that blood atonement had something to do with it. Interestingly enough he sold the LDS loads of forgeries pertaining to their history that they took at face value. It took critics of the church to actually first claim they were forgeries.

As far as outside of the LDS - what about Ervil LeBaron? Warren Jeffs? Ron and Dan Lafferty? More recently that young Mormon couple Kody Patten and Toni Fratto who murdered his ex-girlfriend has been said to possibly be related to this doctrine.

 

My experience as well. The odd time one shows up, I simply point to the mezzuzza on my door post and tell them I'm quite happy with ny faith. A polite thank you and they're on their way.

 

The reason I ask is because if he was an actual "missionary" (sent by the church and trained up on the discussions and all that), he'd be in a suit (or at least shirt and tie) with a name tag and he'd have a companion (always travel in two's) - that's why I ask. This sounds like it was probably some random guy with a book of Mormon who wasn't a missionary - might even have been someone reading it before even converting.

I would have to answer "yes". Despite a general trend of US-education bashing, I think the overall level of US education is pretty good (with highs and lows across the country). From a "State" perspective, if they came through the New York education system, the answer would be "yes".

I don't think your preconception matches any district that I am aware of. Not saying that you can't back it up with some sort of data (and no, please don't bother), but this is not something I've experienced in the various parts of the US I lived and worked in.

 

Wait - I just re-read your past few posts.

Did you approach the "Mormon" guy and instigate the conversation?

So, he was just standing there holding a book of Mormon and you approached him and lambasted him for his views. Doesn't that go completely against your own "problem" with missionaries?

(By the way, it doesn't sound like he was a missionary - sounds like he was just some random young guy with a book of Mormon)

 

Now everyone is going to want one!

 

I don't think you have because it's pretty clear what happened from my description but you are insisting that I'm at fault here. Bias I think.

No. He was approaching passers by and attempting to talk to them (which I take to be an attampt at conversion) about Mormonism.
He was American so I'm assuming he was on some sort of "mission" type thing as I'm in the UK.
No idea what he was wearing as it was raining at the time (one reason I didn't stop for more of a chat) and so he had a coat over whatever he was required to wear.
I know you're finding it hard to accept but in this situation I (the atheist) was the polite one and the Mormon was the idiot shouting in the street.
I'm pretty sure Mormon's are one polite homogenous mass.

I'm surprised at how many people mentioned how polite the Mormon's and JW's are.
To paraphrase Chris Rock...that's how you're supposed to act!
I'm not giving someone credit for something they are supposed to do.
What else are they going to do? Start raging at me on my doorstep?
Even the more fire and brimstone evangelicals that shout in the street at polite when you get them one to one.

 

Relax - just trying to have a conversation here and I'm just trying to look for areas where I can add personal experience and insights that have any sort of meaning.

I didn't think I was placing "fault" anywhere but in looking at the aggressive tone (towards Americans, Mormons, Education, etc), I was trying to figure out what happened.

"Normally", missionaries don't engage in yelling matches and they always have a companion - that's the part that doesn't ring true. Makes me wonder if it was NOT a Mormon or maybe if it was some recently converted person feeling the urge to spout off without quite understanding things (hmmm.... not that that would happen around here... )

Well, based on your other posts and the amount of rage and aggression you seem to hold for Mormons, other missionaries, and the various people who show up on your doorstep, you can probably understand why someone might think you weren't being perfectly polite.

Anyway, apologies for any misunderstanding - I don't see much else this conversation will accomplish (unless you have any other comments or questions?)


As far as this thread goes, I'm around if anyone wants to ask questions I might be able to answer (point of reference - I've been attending the Mormon Church about 4 years and live in a Mormon family. My step daughter is a former missionary as are my two sons-in-law. I am not a member but I support my family and friends in the church and attend meetings/sermons/Sunday school, etc.).

 

I'm as relaxed as can be.

You were making out I just walked up to some bloke in the street and told him his beliefs were stupid.
Not exactly a positive character trait that.
Despite pretty much every post I've written saying that's exactly what I didn't do.
Just seems odd to me that you could mis-read something in such a glaringly incorrect manner.
I think it's probably because you are partly biased into thinking that mormon's are nice, while people that question them are not.

Rage and aggression? Really?
Not sure what you are reading mate but I don't think I've exhibited rage or aggression at all. Pretty sure I've been nothing but polite too.
Seems to me this is the same sort of thing that Dawkin's suffers from.
Any questioning, clarity or plain speaking about religion is mischaracterised as aggression or rage or being militant.
I mentioned previously I had a 30 min+ conversation with the JW's on my doorstep. Do you think they would have stayed that long if I was aggressive and full of rage?

There are Mormon practices that I dislike (baptising dead people, racism in the early church doctrine and practice and the sexism of polygamy being the main ones) but doorstepping people is pretty minor.

 

For me it's a case of credit where credit is due. I've never been sworn at or, as far as I know, deliberately lied to by a JW. I've had both done to me by salespeople more than once - who you'd think, as "professionals" would be better at that sort of thing. Also, when I'm busy I only have to say to the JWs that I'm not interested, ever so politely, and they're on their way politely too. Most salespeople need to be told "NO!" firmly 4 or 5 times, with increasing levels of obvious irritation and volume until they finally leave and refrain from trying to cram whatever it is they're trying to sell down my throat.

 

Again...credit where credit is due? Really?
Mormon's and JW are better than door to door sales people.
Fair enough.
Bit of a back handed compliment isn't it?
Your average drug dealer is probably less pushy than a door to door salesman.

 

For those with questions about the church and church doctrine, this site answers them better than i can. www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml