What might that point have been, Will? I mean, you made a lot of statements, but none had either relevance or accuracy... so what were you trying? Surely you weren't trying to start a personal attack in a "zero tolerance" forum, were you? Well, that's one way of avoiding the actual question, or it's implication... You really are missing what's being said, aren't you? Will, at no time have we claimed to be transmitting the Ryu, so this is, once again, completely irrelevant, and besides the point. Right. Will, the idea of knowing what is in a schools makeup is commonplace. The only time there is any real question of it is in the Bujinkan, and always from those Westerners who want everything to be mysterious and secret. I'll say that again. The only time there is any real question is in the Bujinkan. Not even in the other lines of the same damn Ryu. There's no secret what is within the Hontai Yoshin Ryu, for instance, or the Shinden Fudo Ryu Jujutsu, or the Kukishinden Ryu (mainline), or in the lines in the Genbukan, Jinenkan, or elsewhere. Only in the Bujinkan. Now, do you think that that's because Hatsumi is so secretive that he doesn't even tell his top students whether or not there's a sword syllabus in one of the Ryu or not, or is it wishful thinking on the parts of the Westerners who simply don't get the way these things work? By your reasoning, because they've been taught together for the last two generations. Right... Uh, no, we aren't. That's kinda the point. If we were talking about the Ryu-ha, then the Menkyo ranking would matter. What we're talking about here (well, what I was specifically saying here) is that the Bujinkan is not the Ryu, and they are separate entities. But then again, it seems like you just want to disagree with me, even when agreeing with me, and others like to support such actions. This is the type of unthinking discussion that I wasn't wanting to get involved in again, by the way. Really? Should we go back to the "Bujinkan Ryu-ha Training" thread to check? I don't think it's a matter of the Menkyo Kaiden, I think it's a matter of Ishizuka being a better teacher with more information regarding the Bujinkan, including it's Ryu. Menkyo Kaiden wasn't needed for that, by the way, provided they were within the teachings of the Bujinkan itself. I also think that the aforementioned dedication comes into it... I get the feeling that someone who is going to live in Japan for a decade or more to learn from Ishizuka is likely to be a little more dedicated than someone rocking up to RVDs classes, or worse, learning through his DVDs. Can you back that up? What were the circumstances of Ishizuka recieving Menkyo Kaiden in, say, Takagi Yoshin Ryu? What were the preceding steps that he went through? How about for Kukishinden Ryu? Did he do one section at a time, licencing as he went, or was it a single licencing all at once? Were the Ryu separated when he was licenced, or did he receive them all at the same time? What is the difference between training for Menkyo and other forms of training? I wouldn't necessarily bet on that, Will. You might find that the hypothetical is quite close to reality. But you can ask Kacem, so we can get our answers (I'm just throwing ideas out now). Nagato and Hatsumi initially. But this is an old game, and really, completely off topic for the thread.
Ah. I was wondering how long you'd take. Firstly, yes, Menkyo Kaiden does reflect a certain level of mastery, and I have never insinuated that it didn't. What I have said is that it is a false standard to look for as definitive of anything when it comes to the teaching of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, or in the Bujinkan. It really doesn't have anything to do with that. Probably the same as yourself. I really don't get this line of questioning, though, as with the rest of my comments, it's pretty obvious that no such ranking is relied upon, claimed, used, required, or anything else. Honestly, it just comes across as stirring up dust in order to make it seem like you're doing something. And the clip is mentioned again... Frankly, RP, you're getting a number of things wrong in this paragraph, starting with a false standardization of what the Takamatsuden are, and going from there. But we'll deal with that soon. Er, actually, when it's my words, it's my point. Not yours. You really don't get to score points that way. The Takamatsuden are the arts taught by Takamatsu (pretty simply: Takamatsu tranmissions). That is not exclusively the Bujinkan. So, uh, yeah. Takamatsuden. Maybe not the way you'd want to think about them, but then again, that's not really a concern of mine... But to the point, "legitimate" in relation to what we teach, and what we claim to teach, as well as what we don't claim to teach. Hmm, not entirely sure that I'd agree with your take on what the Bujinkan arts are, there... It's certainly one interpretation, and one usage of the description, but not the one I was going with. Oh, and for the record, I'd say that Godan is in no way related to any level of understanding of the various Ryu, just related to an understanding of Bujinkan martial arts. That's a bit different. Did you see me say it was anything more? Okay then, if that's your interpretation, let me ask this... at Godan, once you've become a member of the Shidoshi-kai, what are you not authorised to teach? Are you not authorised to teach kicking methods? How about spear? Are you not allowed to teach group defence until you're a higher rank? How about the Ge Ryaku no Maki from Gyokko Ryu? Or the Shirabe Moguri Gata of Kukishinden? Daisho Sabaki? What are you not authorised to teach, if there's this other requirement that doesn't seem to be enforced at all? Oh, you can question, go ahead... but the false requirements you're trying to force in there can be left to the side, thank you very much. You're kidding, yeah? Hatsumi has repeated this ideal over and over again for decades now... you're asking when he told me personally? As far as knowing what is possible to learn under the Shihan, I have a fair idea of the breadth, yeah. Which is why I'm not taking anything away from them. Firstly, the very conglomerate you're discussing stops it being relevant to Menkyo Kaiden. So, no. If they were separated out again, then you've got some relevance... but we remove it from being Bujinkan at that point, and make it whichever Ryu we're looking at. I'm not getting into the whole "empire building" argument, as I consider that one of the biggest weaknesses of the Bujinkan... but one that won't rear it's head in it's worst way for a little while yet. Every member of the Bujinkan I've seen. All of them, RP. Again, though, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, all it is is an observation. After all, to make martial arts work in the most powerful way they can, they need to be consistent and congruent, so it is a real positive for skill building in an individual. It only has a negative impact when you're wanting the individual Ryu themselves. With dedication, insight, perserverance, and intelligence. Oh, and some very good and helpful contacts. You seem to have missed the point, RP. Huh? Yeah, I completed the thought, RP. "Those that have x-ranking/perceived training methods are seen to be better" than those who don't. Seriously, that was implied throughout the comment, I'm not sure how you could miss it, unless you were either being deliberately obtuse, or have real trouble with anything not spelled out in detail and incredibly literally to you... which would explain a lot of your posts over your time. And that's a strawman which deliberately ignores the premise of the comment. Cute. No, all it shows is that that was the ranking system Hatsumi used at that point. Oh, and there is no implication of necessarily being able to become your own line head just from Menkyo Kaiden, so you know... why do you think Manaka doesn't teach "Manaka-ha Gyokko Ryu"? Or "Manaka-ha Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu"? Yeah... the premise is that Hatsumi simply wouldn't be ranking with Menkyo licences, so no-one would have them. Try to keep up with the hypotheticals. It's possible, provided that authority is part of the Menkyo Kaiden (and, before you say "of course it is", it's not an automatic part and parcel deal), but the thing is, he couldn't be teaching both at the same time. If he was teaching Gyokko Ryu, it wouldn't be Bujinkan, and if he was teaching Bujinkan, it wouldn't be Gyokko Ryu. But, honestly, I'm not sure that that comment will be understood. Yeah... again, you missed what was actually being said there. No, that part is just labeling. And, again, missing the point. This is getting like the Bujinkan Ryu-ha Training thread... Sure. You have a better form? Really, I gotta say, a Ryu-ha ranking licence only has relevance within that Ryu-ha. Nothing else. So, uh, no.
Right. Except that that's not the way it works. They don't "make up" the Bujinkan, but they do inform it. The Bujinkan, as expressed as Budo Taijutsu, is not made up of the Ryu... and, in fact, for that to be the reality, it would mean that the Ryu are no longer distinct entities, which further removes the idea of Menkyo Kaiden meaning something. Yeah, you don't have to tell me... I've read the posts around this place. Lot's of cases of one man's reality... Yeah, we're back to the Bujinkan Ryu-ha Training thread... Let's look at this seriously. A ranking that is no longer offered or applied (at least, there is no evidence to suggest that they are) is the only one that matters? Learning the Ryu as opposed to learning Budo Taijutsu, when the entire focus is on moving away from the Ryu and towards a more congruent image of Budo Taijutsu? One man's reality again.... gotta love this irony! Which just shows that, for the purposes of training in the Bujinkan and learning what the Bujinkan teaches, Menkyo Kaiden is really irrelevant... are you sure you realize that you're making my case for me now? Er... okay.... Yeah, again, this has been my statement from the beginning. What do you mean "NOW I'm catching on..."? Surely it's you that's catching up? Yeah... again, particular words. I never said anything about me asking him. Are you talking to yourself here? Yeah... again, what is the difference in the authority? If you want to learn the Ryu, don't join the Bujinkan. Join the Genbukan, and wait until 3rd Dan, then chat with Tanemura.
Thread closed for a short time so everyone can take a breather and think carefully about the tone of their posts. As usual we are heading down the snide comments and petty little digs route. It will not be tolerated. Stick to the arguments, put your personal dislikes of each other aside and discuss the topic or I will hand out bans. I will reopen this later today and there will be no more warnings, people who resort to petty bitching will log on to find they are on the naughty step. Edit: Thread reopened. Read what I say above, the next person who makes a snide, petty dig at someone else as part of their answer will be banned. If you can't behave like adults, you will be treated like children!
Please reality Posted Just a quick question but at what point did these teachers achieve this Menkyo Kaiden Rank, because as far as I remember the Japanese teachers were given this rank together with the scrolls years ago when Hatsumi was ill. This was around 1968 IIRC, and even Manaka at this point received Menkyo in 3 schools and teaching licence in three others. Thats not bad for only 9 years training. Now it may be possible to obtain menkyo in Gyokko ryu, koto Ryu and Togakure Ryu in 3 years a piece as well as fitting in the other three schools to 5th dan I presume. The other answer is that the MKs were given out way before the Japanese were probably ready for that level. So in relation to what PR says, Was there a point after this where Hatsumi said to the shihan... "OK I appreciate that I did give you Menkyo Kaiden all those years ago, but now you are worth it? where as although you had the scrolls and the MKs all those years ago you weren't worth that grade until now".
Gapjumper posted Never said it was unheard of or unusual, but if this is true then clearly the shihan haven't mastered one level before another i.e shodan, then chudan, then okuden etc all the way to Menkyo Kaiden Level, but instead were taught by "Heres the book, heres the grade, get on with it" Which in some ways goes against the comment...
Im not in a position to answer the question you made but Ive heard the same stories everybody else has. The more prominent students from that time got MK in several ryu-ha while those later didnt get it or just got a few. On the other hand this is all rumor and since they themselves dont like to talk too much about it I think it is difficult to say what is correct and whats not. What I think we should keep in mind though is that training has most likely changed quite a bit since the early days. Training 9 years with Hatsumi sensei then may very well be enough for MK. Like you write though, this doesnt mean there wasnt anything left to learn or polish. Think about how quickly Takamatsu sensei recieved MK from Toda. Regards / Skuggvarg
So, you are questioning a lot of things concerning how others, among whom Ishizuka sensei and Kacem Zoughari, learned the arts and through what lines, you are constantly pressing on the fact that you know how Koryu work, and then you claim it is besides the point whom your teacher learned from? That is the world upside down... Regards, Tom.
This is quite an important factor for me to. Chris, you left the art, not with everything from it, now you seek to tell the people who remain why they are wrong. Your information on the art for the past 10 years is all at best 2nd hand, from a person who tells you their impression of it, at worst it is from a collection of information from the internet. If you want to go indie, cool, but stop coming back and saying how we are wrong in how we believe things or do things. As an aside, your 'facts' about MK are inaccurate, they are still issued. And there are Gaijin in the booj who hold MK. You are an expert on Ninjutsu Australia, and internet forums, I'd certainly defer to you on these matters, but the rest, let it lie. Sleeping dogs and all that.
I never said you claim to be transmitting the ryû. You do claim/pretend to be knowledgeable in the ryû ("for the record, I'm actually pretty aware of the different ranking structures of the different Ryu, so I'm good there" ) and you claim to practice what is in the ryû ("What I am is a practitioner of the methods of the various Ryu" ). If what you practice comes from Wayne Roy, bits of information from "friends" in the various X-kan and other lineages, and readily available information from books the internet, then obviously there's quite the difference when compared to a deshi of a true master in the said ryu (which you claim to practice methods from). That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. It's not so much about secrets as it is about some things being out in the open and others not. There's nothing strange about it. Even Mr Manaka was quoted in an earlier thread regarding the existance of weapons techniques in Gyokko Ryû for instance, yet you still dispute it because it doesn't fit into your picture. A picture that you have painted for yourself by getting bits of information from your teacher Wayne Roy, various members of x-kan, and stuff that is readily found in books and on the internet. Compared this to what others, like Kacem, have gotten from close connections to the source and the actual densho, and it's a no brainer who one should listen to. You are free to believe that the Bujinkan is something else and entirerly separate from the nine ryûha. I disagree. In any case, it is in my opinion better to learn from someone who is a master in the arts that make up the organization, than to learn from someone who is not. Please do, and quote me saying or implying that "learning in a koryu 'fashion', with the related ranking, is going to produce better practitioners". You are separating yin from yang here. 1) Ishizuka sensei was with Hatsumi sensei from the beginning. 2) Ishizuka sensei received menkyo kaiden in several (six) of the nine ryûha. Whether or not menkyo kaiden was needed is not the issue. Others without menkyo kaiden have not gone through the same path as he and (for example) Senô sensei has. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter if it's menkyo kaiden or a purple feather in their hat. They have it. Others don't. It's easy to reference the menkyo kaiden because others don't have it. It's NOT a coincidence, as you claim it is. Hatsumi sensei does not hand out menkyo kaiden to just anyone who sticks around Honbu.
I think it's wise to remember that Hatsumi sensei, according to himself, received the title of Sôke before he was at the real level.
Will I agree, but what i'm saying which people miss is is that when the shihan received the Menkyo Kaidens they didnt receive them because they had earnt them, because they had not go through a process of... Study Shoden, and master it Next study Chuden and master it Next Study okuden and master it Etc all the way through the ryu and then once the students were had mastered all the scroll/ryu, and tested, they were handed the Menkyo Kaiden. In fact was there a date when Manaka, Tanemura, etc received Shoden No Maki, but were not awarded chuden as they were not ready for it yet, or did they receive it all at once. I think the latter, which makes any talk of the Japanese Shihan earning the MK a falacy because clearly they didnt go through that process of learning one part before another, i.e in a methodical way. So in effect they were given the MKs well before they were ready for them. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, or something thats not done, just that the idea of the MK mastering these arts i.e. each individual ryu ha is hard to actually state. To put this into perspective when I did my degree I sat my first year and passed before I was allowed to take my second year, and third year respectively. No one can say that I didnt earn my degree as I took the courses and passed each year to a level where a doctor/examination board says that I knew enough to move on to the next year. But what if I had gone to Uni and after 6 months the University said "Gary heres the material, we'll give you your degree now, just make sure you attend a few classes over the next few years, don't worry about any exams or testing, just keep reading the reading list and you'll be fine" Do you think I would have earnt my degree in the second example? And do you think there would be a way without examination to determine if I was worth that degree?
Do you think that if the Shihan/Menkyo Kaiden holders went through the process as you described it that they would be better skill-wise than they are now or worse?
Garth, I see where you are coming from but you need to realize that the way people get/got awarded Menkyo Kaiden is strictly the business between the master and the student. Some may be more formal, demanding you go through all the steps and some not. You cant compare with a university class since they most probably have to follow rules. There are many anecdotes, even from the bujinkan ryu-ha about the handling of Menkyo Kaiden and from that you can see that it is not cut in stone but rather totally up to the Soke to decide. I would also like to point out that what you describe regarding the handing out of MK´s is your thoughts on it. From reading your post one could get the opinion it is in fact what did happen (not saying youre wrong just that I think you should be careful not to sound like you know exactly what happened). Regards / Skuggvarg
From what I have been able to gather from the shihan the main difference was that they did a lot of basics and study of the forms in that period To my mind going through a period like this is what separates the mediocre from the very good later on
These licenses historically were essentially a system for granting monopolistic economic rights. I think that's interesting to keep in mind.
Benkyoka posted Shuggvarg posted I see where you are coming from but you need to realize thatthe way people get/got awarded Menkyo Kaiden is strictlythe business betweenthe master andthe student. Some may be more formal, demanding you go through allthe steps and some not. You cant compare with a university class sincethey most probably have to follow rules.There are many anecdotes, even fromthe bujinkan ryu-ha aboutthe handlingof Menkyo Kaiden and from that you can see that it is not cut in stone but rather totally up tothe Soke to decide. I would also like to point out that what you describe regardingthe handing outof MK´s is your thoughts on it. From reading your post one could getthe opinion it is in fact what did happen (not saying youre wrong just that I think you should be careful not to sound like you know exactly what happened). Your both missingthe pointof myoriginal post. When PR stated... My question "How do we knowthey have whenthe didnt go through it systematically, but were handedthe MKs way beforethey did so. Surethey might know it now, but how do we really know especially if learningthe Ryu Ha are notthe main thrustofthe Bujinkan?
