MMA, the final thread!

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Andy Murray, May 17, 2003.

  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Not that you'll take much heed of me :rolleyes: but the issues surrounding MMA vs TMA etc are clogging up a few other threads, and it would be nice to get it all sorted out here.

    From my understanding so far;

    MMA is a training methodology and/or a sporting format.
    It's based on 3 or more different TMA systems.
    The most commonly accepted systems seem to be Muay Thai & BJJ.

    TMA covers a range of different systems, some of which are ridiculously ineffective. Some people only do them for fun. Some of these systems cover issues that will come up in real life in a manner no sports gym would consider relevant to the MMA sports environment, as they have rules to protect them.

    TMA people can crosstrain, but I don't see why they should feel a need to refer to themselves as practicing MMA. I've always considered cross training to be necessary, and the term works for me.

    In the scenario where a good grappler has control over someone from a striking system, the striker is inclined to strike. It's all he knows how to do. What bugs me, is when the grappler says "I can do that too" Maybe they can, but they don't necessarily train for it.

    Frequently, I've seen people post about how MMA/UFC events are as close to reality fighting as you can get. Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Real fights, and what the majority of the TMA systems focus their attention on, do not occur on matted fenced off areas with an audience, referee's and rules. Don't be ridiculous. Real fights happen with broken bottles and bricks, ten or more against one. There is noone to call time when you tap out cos you can't defend the paving slab about to crush your skull.
    Yeah that triangle choke is superb, pity the guys mate is kicking your head in as you apply it. Whaddya mean he bit your ear off, tell your coach, he'll kiss it better.

    Before you MMA people start distancing yourself from TMA systems, just remember where your MMA came from. Sporting environments are a very good way to hone your skills, but don't go getting all overconfident and superior, cos that's what will get you into fights. If you haven't been training awareness, releases from Hair grabs, blocking systems, defences against multiple attackers etc, the you'll be in hospital long before the TMA guy.......if you're lucky!

    Go Nuclear!
  2. Swoop

    Swoop Valued Member

    You seemed to have over looked the fact that MMA isn't just about competition training. Like TMA, MMA can be anything you want it to be.
  3. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Nope, I simply didn't comment on that aspect. I have no problem with combinent MMA's, just the attitude of the would be sports competitors!

    Last edited: May 17, 2003
  4. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Ok so far :D

    Don't forget - many "MMA" gyms also teach stuff that they wouldn't be allowed to do in the sporting arena. Definately true of the SBG guys and most of the MMA people I know.

    Makes sense

    They do if they're a MMA grappler - and it's MMA we're discussing- right? :D

    Agreed- but most TMA's don't train in that environment either :D

    So - if MMA bouts are not as close to reality as you can get - what is? What training format that you can apply against full resistance comes closer?

    I find it's the opposite in my experience - most MMA people I know have a very realistic appreciation of how vulnerable they and anyone else is when "it" hits the fan. It's the TMA people I know who tend to have a false sense of security and get in fights because "Sensei says" that their reverse punch to the chest will stop a freight train. MMA people KNOW what they can and cannot do under real pressure becasue that's how they train.

    Go on - try to grab my hair :D

    Ahem.... Multiple attackers are easy - RUN FOR THE HILLS and I find it's the MMA guys who know their limitations that will do so sooner!
  5. Swoop

    Swoop Valued Member

    You get attitudes in every aspect. TMA critisise MMA, MMA critisise TMA and everyone critisises TKD.

    In my opinion MMA and TMA are good for each other. MMA stems from TMA but now that MMA is getting so much attention it's gotten the traditional guys looking deeper into their own martial arts. I think it was Combat magazine (I might be wrong) that ran a series of articles on Karate submission techniques, which I knew nothing about before.

    It's a case of when one imroves it pushes the other to do the same. It's helped open peoples eyes instead of having a blind following.
  6. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Good post Swoop :D

    I don't think the Karate people did either :D
  7. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Ah Dave, if only you'd looked at the mods forum before jumping on me :D

    Glad to hear it, but has it become 'low percentile' due to the focus on sport?

    Yup, I went off at a tangent from my own tangent :D

    I agree, but then the only way to really learn about fighting is to live through a few near-death beatings.

    That's the million dollar question.

    I know what you mean. It's the generalisation, and futility of these discussions on web forums that gets up my nose mostly.

    You mean it's a wig? :eek:


    This is great, cos there is still so much uncharted territory within the TMA. I worry that, with all the dissing that goes on of TMA, good skills may be lost to us all.

    It has, it also seems to have made some people more blind?
  8. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Do I see Yoda using quotes!? :eek::eek:

    PS - Good post Andy/swoop, there's been darn too much bashing of TMA by too many MMA guys!

    I am a goddamn TMAist and I am more than enuff qualified to break my....errr.....other's noses ;)

  9. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Yep, record thread for Yoda....more'n one line :D
  10. WhiteWizard

    WhiteWizard Arctic Assasain

    this may be a simplistic way of looking at it but it must be kinda like the school situation where you can do a science course which tries to teach you biology chemistry and physics or you could do the ones you want or if your that interested just do all three subjects.

    hope people can extract what i mean from that
  11. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Ahhhhhh Shaddap :D

    See - TWO lines :D
  12. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.


    Nah, you Shaddap!

    This is a serious thread, I'm about to de-bunk the whole MMA scene ;)
  13. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Go for it - I like a good de-bunking :D
  14. Helm

    Helm New Member

    The trouble is, we're not even looking at MMA or TMA anymore. It seems everyone is just searching for that 'Perfect Answer';
    Which is basically comprised of;

    Flattery to ALL styles and systems (except Stavit ofcourse);
    Taking into account that style isnt important but the man is;
    That the situation matters more than the style (4 vs 1);
    That, for all your training, you can still get a brick to the face;

    Any of these potentially seem to close the argument. But as martial arts and fighting systems in general is evolving, by definition, there can be no correct answer. Therefore there can be no 'correct' style.

    Horses for courses and all that :D
  15. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    As we say at work....

  16. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    I look at it this way. I have no problem with traditional, or "classical" martial arts, as long as they train in a realistic manner, against real resistance. How hard is it to defend yourself if you tell the other guy how to attack you beforehand? (one-step sparrings, choreographed self-defense routines). Yet because many of these badasses have trained to disarm a knife-wielding attacker in a static environment, they always presume it will translate to the street. It doesn't make one iota of difference to me if you prefer to bow in, wear a gi in training, do forms, etc.

    It does seem a tad ridiculous to me when someone who has a thousand point tournament wins maintains that his art is more suitable for the street, even more so when he has never had to take a good punch to the face, and keep fighting on sheer guts for thirty minutes.

    MMA is competition, not an art. You can be a Wing Chun grandmaster and get in the ring if you like, that I can respect. Win or lose, MMA fighters get in the ring, and I respect that a thousand times over the so-called experts and their "hidden techniques". They have no place to go, nowhere to run, and the man across the ring from them has very nasty intentions.

    Fight ONCE in a cage, and tell me it isn't a real fight.

    MMA doesn't allow eyegouging or groin strikes.

    Guess what? Neither does competitive Kickboxing, Karate, TKD, San Shou, Boxing, etc.

    I say this all the time, but If you can't win WITH rules, what makes you think you can win without them?
  17. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    So simple - yet understood by so few :D
  18. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    PS- If you can't beat one guy in a one on one situation, you CAN NOT beat two or more. It will never happen.


    Not once.

    No chance.



    Will not happen.
  19. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

  20. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter



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