Would love to see it happen. HWY division needs some fresh blood with some talent and I think having Mirko there would shake things up a little bit. I'll be a little dissapointed though if we don't get to see a Fedor and Crocop rematch though. Who knows really until everything is confirmed.
The addition of Cro-Cop will just leave them in the same position as before...if he beat's Tim...Who else stands a chance? I guess you gotta give anyone with a ground game a chance, but then again they will more than likely not be able to get him down and then KO'd by a LHK! But yeh he has doen this before, talked about the UFC to get Pride to pay him more. However Sherdog have reported he has chosen the UFC (http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=6352) So who knows!!
According to an interview with him at Jutarnji, he's signed nothing yet and no one but him knows what it will be, basically saying that all Sherdog and MMAWeekly's reporting rumours as fact is just bull. It translates to I'll be shocked if he leaves Pride and goes to the UFC. K-1 Heroes, I'll be less shocked, but still very surprised In all honesty, I can only think of one reason why he'd go to the UFC and it sure as hell isn't the money. He made noises about retiring before the OWGP finals; if he's seriously considering hanging up the gloves soon, going to the UFC secures him the legacy of being the only man to get to the higher echelons of the three major organisations, not to mention getting him a heavyweight champion belt. That said, I still think this whole UFC courtship from him is just his way of pressuring Pride into getting him his Fedor rematch; he's always shown that he wants to fight the best, and the best is secured with Pride for the concievable future
If he goes to UFC, he will be champ for a good amount of time. He has faced much better grapplers in Pride than the UFC can throw at him, and better strikers. He may be making the right move, Pride is struggling and the UFC is booming. He could probably make more money here in the States via advertising plus the UFC can afford to pay him more(remains to be seen if they will cough up the money though). The one reason I am wavering, is Mirko does NOT strike me as the type of guy who would willingly give up a title shot against his "nemesis". He strikes me as the type of guy who wants to prove he is the best, and knows Fedor is the best atm.
If all the aquisitions the UFC are supposedly making actually happen then UFC is gunna be friggin awesome. They'll need to aquire a few more good heavyweights though otherwise Crocop will kill everyone, we know his fights wont be boring though.
There's no chance of that. The UFC may pony up more money per fight than Pride's offer (though I'll believe it when I see it), but even if Pride were to go under (I'll believe that when I see it too), there's no way in hell he - or any MMA fighter - will make more money in US advertising than he does in Asia. The market penetration isn't there and certainly won't be during Crocop's career span, or ever, probably
Gotta believe that the only reason he will leavPride is that he wont get his rematch against Fedor...and with the Fedor and Bodog situation, prehaps he doesn't see himself getting that match.
I have to disagree. The UFC can afford to pay more than Pride(rather easily) to start off with. Then you have marketing/advertising...The American media is just now noticing MMA fighters and guys like Tito are bringing in big bucks. Mirko would be very marketable with both his "clean cut" image and his exciting style, so I could see him making a lot of money here in the U.S. It's just a matter of time till top fighters are getting T-Shirts and shoes etc... Plus the UFC has made it known they are expanding internationally, so they can use Mirko's popularity to break into the international markets and Mirko could still benefit from advertisements in Asia/Europe as well as the U.S. Pride is on a downslide atm, and they cannot give Mirko the same amount of exposure that the UFC can. Fedor did resign with Pride, but if Mirko does not then there is no chance Mirko gets a title shot.
A great eighteen months for the UFC's chequebook doesn't suddenly mean that they're richer than an organisation that's been consistantly selling out 50,000+ seater arenas for the last ten years, just like a tremulous year for Pride doesn't suddenly mean they're skint. A couple of years down the line if they've not secured a TV deal, they'll be hurting badly, if not shutting up shop completely, and they're probably feeling a bit of a sting right now, but I doubt they're in as bad a financial situation as some people seem to think. They've just got too much of a market behind them. Like I said in my previous post; even if Pride goes down, the real money in the form of bonuses will always be in Japan and it'd be a Japanese organisation that'd be picking most of the bones of Pride (probably K-1 Heroes) As for the marketing; T-shirts, gloves, Xyience etc can be pretty lucrative, but it's niche marketing, ie, products aimed at a specific group. In the advertising game, that's small fry Over in Asia - Japan and Korea especially - combat sports have achieved a much larger degree of market penetration; they're essentially the favourite sports. This opens up further advertising opportunities for name fighters including things like razors and toilet roll (just two doing the rounds right now over there; Crocop's advertising Schick razors and Wandy's advertising loo roll) which are products aimed at a much larger market, much like over here in England we see football players endorsing Advertising for a product aimed at a niche (examples: T-shirts - fighter's fans. Gloves - people that train in the sport. Xyience - people who know nothing about dietary supplements) can make a name in that niche some nice coin proportionally (ie, Chuck Liddell will make more off his Xyience sponsorship than an up and coming fighter), but advertising for a product aimed towards a larger market (household appliances, cosmetics, cars, bog roll - the target audience is pretty much everyone) will get more airtime in prime slots and more magazine and newspaper space, thus generate more revenue for the producers and conversely the celebrity advertising it For a MMA as a sport (and then it's fighters as individuals) to achieve that kind of market penetration, MMA needs to become a top-viewed, mainstream sport in the West. In order to do that, it's got to work it's way in with - or most likely dislodge one or two of - football, rugby, cricket, boxing, golf, tennis and athletics; that's just in England, America's got different sports, but it's still the same model. Do I think MMA will ever achieve that kind of penetration? I'd love to see it, but I've got my doubts due to how established these sports are. Will this happen in Crocop's career span? Not a chance, hence why for MMA or K-1 rules fighters (and a fair few pro-wrestlers, surprisingly), the advertising bucks come from the Asian markets where the combat sports are entrenched to that level. The level we can realistically expect MMA to reach in the West is that of pro wrestling - well represented within that niche, but aside from chat show appearances in "up cycles" of business, it's appeal will largely remain within said niche Phew, nice to know that time in advertising wasn't wasted, eh?
LOL thanks for the large block of text, you had some really good points but my stupididy ment it took an age for me to read, as I kept loosing my place nad reasing the same line over and over again!! Anyways Yes I do believe as the UFC has a large % of its audience in the 18-30 age range...a range advertisers love. Its the same reason advertisers loved Wrestling when they had that market and now the UFC has it I believe it can push, wether it will is something else. BUT BACK ON TOPIC...Found this: http://www.mmauniverse.com/news/SS1104 Really does sound like he is just using the UFC to up his PRIDE pay cheque...again!
Sorry about that, man. I just started and couldn't stop (damn that studying and work experience!). Still, it could've been worse - I could've not used any paragraphs Yeah, that's essentially the crux of it. The thing is, the Western market for combat sports is largely confined to that particular demographic (males aged 18-34) - MMA can make a bomb in that demographic during up-cycles (much like WWE does in its up-cycles), but I honestly don't see the Western market opening up to it the way it has in Asia, certainly not in the immediate future. The cultures are just very different, so sadly, your mum will not be watching a blender ad with Chuck Liddell in it in the middle of Desperate Housewives Crocop's that rarest of rare things - a politician that's also a smart guy. He knows how the game's played outside the ring, and he's playing it to his strengths. It's not the nicest attribute, but it works for him and as long as it keeps him fighting, I can handle it
Honestly, I think the UFC does have more money than Pride at this time. I also think the UFC will continue to grow while Pride will continue to decline for at least the next 6 months or so. No one has any idea how much money the UFC has made recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if they brought in a $500 million profit this year. As to Pride, I'm not saying their poor. They are obviously still a major organization but they are not very financially healthy. I agree as far as Pride, they are not in danger of going bankrupt but I do believe they are feeling the sting. To be fair everything is niche marketing, I think your trying to point out the relatively small size of the MMA niche atm. But I think that's going to change, I honestly think the right MMA fighter could "breakthrough" and grab a major commercial deal for something like gatorade. Likely a year or 2 off still, but there is a huge potential. Ahh but remember the UFC is planning to expand. They are so well off that they can reasonably expand in a way that Pride cannot atm. They have the money to put on shows in Mexico, Canada, England etc.. and I have no doubt they will at least go to China. I totally agree, but I also think that the UFC is going to have a larger market(US, Mexico, Canada at the least) and as it gains popularity I think they will move into mainstream advertising. I agree they need to grow to "rival" the big sports- Golf, NFL, MLB, NBA, Nascar, but I truly believe they can. A recent UFN event got more 18-34 viewers than a big MLB(baseball) game going on at the same time. The biggest fans for NFL, NBA, Nascar are males. UFC is very "male orientated", their fans love to grab a beer and watch the show. I think the UFC can reach these guys, BUT I think the UFC needs to be smart and focus on tv deals. PPV is great to start with, but mainstream tv deals is where the real money is at. Again, I disagree. A lot of people hate pro wrestling because it is fake. They love the slams/athleticism but they hate the "fakeness". MMA is real, people love real. I obviously cannot say that MMA is going to be the biggest sport in 10 years, but I do think that the UFC is going to be a major sport in the coming 10 years and will be bringing in truckloads of money.
I'd be absolutely shocked if they made that; counting overheads, PPV-company cuts, salaries, fighter payouts, their supposed "under the table" fighter bonuses, lawsuits etc. They've not been actually in profit for very long, it doesn't go from running at a loss to making $500million or anywhere close. They're better off now than they've ever been, but the UFC is not Microsoft Hardly. Most things generally have a particular target market, but the fact is that some products are considered "mainstream" because their target audience is much, much wider. Products which are everyday household items, luxury goods that people that can actually afford them will want (such as everyday cars, not things like Hummers which most people can't afford and those people that can, probably don't want them anyway), are just a couple of examples. These are products that fighters in Japan advertise. This is not niche marketing Anything MMA stars advertise will be niche marketing in the West purely because, for all your "but the UFC's huge," the fact is, it's still a sport that's achieved a small degree of market penetration. It may be huge in the "disposable income" bracket (18-34 year old males) at the moment, it may even expand in that bracket (and it probably will before interest drops off and the dreaded "down cycle" kicks in) and it may be a fairly warm ticket in Vegas, just like with the exposure it's getting right now, most people may be aware of the UFC's existance in the way they're aware of the WWE's when it's in up-cycles. They may even have heard of Tito Ortiz (probably more to do with the whole Jenna deal than anything else), but the vast majority of the TV viewing public wouldn't recognise Chuck Liddell if he turned up on a Nissan advert in the middle of a prime time show. This is why the advertising will stick to its niches for the most part, and those niches will be largely sport-related When the up-cycle crests (probably early this coming year), that could potentially happen, but it might well not. Advertisers understand business cycles for non-seasonal sports and shows, as well as how to work to their target audience. If they did stick a fighter in a sports drink ad, the exposure that particular ad recieved would be probably wider, but still the same model as the Xyience ones - all over the place when the UFC's main audience is tuning in (TUF, Spike TV events) but, for the most part, nowhere in sight outside that particular banding unless they're on a chat show or something. Using professional fighters for mainstream advertising is a very risky thing, which is something I'll expand on shortly This point's a bit of a non-sequitur and you seem a little confused about what "expansion" actually is Putting on shows in other countries once or twice a year is not "expansion," no matter what the Zuffa hype machine tells you. It's hitting and running in a market that's already established. Pride have done it (America, Europe, they're doing Macau, America again a couple of times next year and a bunch of other markets) K-1 does it all the time; this is just taking a show and putting it on in a different place from usual - it tends to be quite profitable from the live gate in that people who don't usually get to see the show live will make the effort to get down there, but one show there a year isn't cracking a market, it's visiting the viewers that are already there. I know bands who go and play in Japan at the end of their tours to make some money; it's the same thing. It's not an indication of how healthy the organisation's bank balance is, it's an indication of the fact that they want more money. Nothing wrong with that; I want more money too, but it's not expansion "Expansion" would be if the UFC were to buy out and brand the shows in that particular area. If, for example, Cage Rage became UFC UK, the UFC can be said to have expanded to the UK. If they put on a show over here, they've put on a show over here (and it'll be one I'll have been to). In coming years, they might attempt to do that; there would be advantages, but also a lot of disadvantages too You've missed the point. Getting footholds in other markets (and they're going to have a hell of a lot of work to do to crack Mexico - that's boxing land through and through, not to mention being a little on the poor side) is all well and good, but cracking the market to the degree you seem to think they will is simply an unrealistic goal. There's a reason many of the world's best football players play in England - England may be a very small country and football (soccer, if we're calling it a silly name) is a sport that's played and broadcast world wide, but due to the degree of market penetration that sport has here (I hate football, never watch a game, but I know who's on top and I recognise the players when they're in adverts), the money is better than anywhere else in the world for that particular sport. This is the level combat sports are at in the Asian market. This is not a level the UFC will reach in the West in the foreseeable future. There are many cultural issues at play there, not to mention the fact that the main sports are just too entrenched in the public psyche That's an interesting statistic, but again, it's a different point (not excluding the potential skewing of the statistics by the game being watched in bars, round friends houses etc) The point I was making was that in order to crack the mainstream advertising market, it's got to expand beyond its target market. This means it has to get into the mainstream sports list, which simply doesn't occur when a sport (or indeed any show) is largely confined to one particular narrow target market. There's also the fact that, throwing aside the sport's growth issue, which I'll discuss in a moment, advertisers for mainstream products in the West always have been and always will be very wary about using someone who hits people for a living in ads, which is why you see very few boxers advertising such products compared to football stars. There are exceptions; Frank Bruno and Chris Eubank being notable examples, but they come from a sport with a very long and rich history (something MMA doesn't really have at the moment) and Bruno's always been seen as a gentle giant, which is a characteristic advertisers can always use, and Eubank's just bonkers (he also got no mainstream advertising exposure until he retired from the sport). Advertisers are wary because it's very easy for a fighter's public favour to turn, which can instantly tarnish the product they're working with's image and thus negatively impact its revenue, which in turn can easily lead to the advertising company losing their contract Say, hypothetically, Liddell's advertising something mainstream; he's in ads on prime time TV, he's on billboards with this product in his hands, he's everywhere. In his next fight, his opponent is seriously hurt and recieves damage from which it's doubtful he'll ever recover, or is even killed (it's flat out naive to think this will never happen in a sanctioned MMA bout). The media backlashes against the sport, just like it does whenever there's a similar tragedy in boxing, Liddell's image is suddenly mud, the ad gets pulled and the people who make the product ask the people in the advertising company what the hell they were thinking putting such a thug's face on their product. The ad firm loses the contract, which could potentially be very damaging to them financially if, like in this hypothetical situation says, it's a mainstream contract. A niche product won't be such a sting, but they'd probably still lose that contract As for the growth in sports - non-seasonal sports especially - it does not continue unabated. The rate of MMA's growth in the West will not continue at the rate it is now exponentially, or even close. There comes a point in things like this where a saturation point occurs; where everyone in their target market knows of its existence and when & where they can watch it and everyone that's going to be interested in it is already watching it, and when it comes to MMA, that market's narrower than just 18-34 year old males. When the saturation point occurs, it can often hold for a period of time, keeping the interest there for that audience, but it's very hard for a non-seasonal sport or show to keep that interest up, especially at the current rate of exposure the UFC's going for (PPV every month, plus free events). Of the people that have been reached and are interested, not all of them are going to keep up that rate of interest all year round; there will be a new hot thing, or changes in their lives will lead to them losing touch with it, or they'll just get sick of or bored with it, especially if the current rematch trend continues. Japanese organisations break the year up with Grand Prix series events and big shows for the end of the year, as well as having a lower rate of PPV events, despite their larger market share, which obviously shows to be an effective manner of keeping interest up. Like it or not, MMA is always going to appeal to a fairly narrow spectrum of society. In the West, as we grow up, we're constantly socialised to dislike violence (it's just so wrong!), many people don't like fighting, especially real fighting (they can handle crappy movie violence), not to mention the fact that it being such a new and - let's face it - complex sport, there's a large amount of basic knowledge that's needed to be instilled in a mass audience. Long time fans or people that train in martial arts can largely understand what's going on with the passing of the guard or how a triangle choke works or how much it sucks to get kicked in the leg, but could you sit down in front of an event with your dad and have him understand what's going on, the way you can with a sport that he grew up watching like football? I know I can't (my dad and I still watch boxing together, but he won't watch MMA - it's either "boring" or he's yelling "Jesus Christ, he's gonna kill him!" This is what MMA has to deal with), thus there's much more work to be done at penetrating the mainstream market than with something else. It's not particularly nice to think about, but these are the realities of the Western market for combat sports. Boxing's a slight exception, purely due to the fact that it's older than dirt and it's easy to pick up what's going on. Give it a generation or so and if MMA's still around, it might be at the level of boxing, but there's a lot that could stop that This is true. However, if a big mainstream station picked up an MMA organisation, look for taped events rather than live ones, just in case something really bad goes down. No station wants the stigma of the channel that broadcast a death on live, free TV You seriously need to read the points I'm making before you respond to them. Following on from your point; a lot of people love fake. Fake is safe, fake is fun, fake is something that you can turn your brain off and enjoy. Essentially, advertisers and TV stations can get behind pro wrestling events because there's a much smaller percieved risk in it due to it's nature. It's a largely incorrect assumption; there have been deaths and serious injuries, but proportionally to the amount of ring time pro wrestlers get compared to MMA fighters, the rate they occur's not so bad. There's also the fact that an accidental injury or death in a "sports entertainment" bout would not carry the same kind of stigma that a boxer or MMA fighter getting knocked into a coma would, thus someone with a product advertised in the break of an event (or a sponsor of the event) that a pro wrestler's hurt wouldn't take such a market hit as someone who got hurt in a "real" fight sport I bring the WWE up because whatever you and I think about it, it is essentially the poster child for how a large non-seasonal event functions in the West. It has years where it's everywhere, it's the hot thing, stars are on chat shows, radio shows, advertising stuff (though still stuff that's directed to its target audience - 18-34 year old males, see the niche?), it gets reality shows, it gets free TV shows, huge PPV buys, PPV rates expand to one or two a month, exposure for its owner (Dana White = Vince Whatshisname; you read it here first, kids!), clothing lines, loads of startup organisations appear and try to cash in, some of whom wind up going under, others are bought out and used for talent farms or just cannibalised for talent, the whole lot... is this sounding like the UFC to you yet? Then, after a couple of years, interest wanes, something else comes along, PPV buys drop, live gates drop, people stop giving a toss about its stars, reality shows ratings drop and get cancelled, the big sponsors go away and word circulates over the internet that they're going to be shutting up shop. This goes on for a few years, during which time some of the established roster goes away, there are some shakeups in the way events are run or presented, a couple of new, marketable stars start coming up and then interest comes back because it's a familiar yet different product. You watch, this is the way the MMA "boom" will go. There's no way it doesn't. There's still a lot of money to be made from it - the next couple of up-cycles will be absolutely killer - but it just won't be able to crack the market fully. (You think that post's long, imagine it without extra gaps for paragraphs or my beautiful grammar!) Now - back on topic: there appear to be no interesting MMA rumours today. However, unconfirmed reports suggest that Lorenzo Fertita has recently farted
Another Rumour going round was that BJ Penn was dropping to LW adn Coaching on TUF5...well: http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=3129&zoneid=2
That'd be very fun to see. I'm a lifelong Pulver fan, win, lose or draw; he's had a couple of tough losses recently, but he remains a great fighter and an excellent ambassador for the sport. Penn at LW would be cool to see again as well (if he can get his tubby ass down to 155 now) and I'd love to see a rematch with them. Hopefully both fighters can get a win or two before the finale kicks off
I guess we shall have to agree to disagree Sever, only time will tell who was correct. What do you say 5 years from now we agree to discuss this again, and see which organization's top fighters are making more money(via advertising, salary etc..)...That is if we are both alive and still remember this. (Odds are against it, but who knows?)
Yeah why not The tragic thing is that that conversation actually made me briefly consider going back into advertising work (something I swore I'd never do again!)
Id be extremly surprised if BJ didnt drop back down to lightweight, it is without doubt his natural weight class and he would dominate absolutly everyone in the class and hold the LW title for a long time. I think he'll fight Hughes again before Hughes retires but whether this will be after or before he drops down to 205 i dont know.
