Microsoft Malware & Virus Protection

Given how well my 6yo MBP compares to PCs, I'm not so sure that it's insanely overpriced (maybe for the HW, but the software's worth it).

 

Apple machines aren't that bad. Given they tend to last a bit longer than the average PC and malware isn't as big a problem as it is on the Windows I'd say you probably get your monies worth. The gilded cage direction Apple are moving in and their total and complete animosity to any and all competition does give me cause for concern though. However if things like a companies ethics and business practices don't bother you. Macs are a perfectly acceptable alternative to Windows PCs.

Their new range of laptops might change that though. I don't like the idea of having to send something back to the factory just to have it's battery changed. That just seems silly.

 

You're forgetting PCs get slow because Windows gets bogged down. The principle suspects are the swap file and registry. And then there's all the additional software you need to run, just to keep Windows alive in the real world. The hardware it's self doesn't slow down.

 

No, PCs get slow because your average user just installs gigs of trashware without thinking about it and never carries out basic maintenance. I'm not sure what additional software you're talking about. All of our workstations run software based on a whitelist, using hashed signatures to determine what belongs on the list. You obviously have an issue with Windows but generally I find that most people's dislike of Microsoft software is due to a dislike of end-users more than anything else.

I have never had an issue with virii or spyware, or any other malicious software. Nor has anyone competent I know.

I'm not particularly a Windows fan, nor am I a fan of open-source, but the only company I actively dislike are Apple (the recent LDAP authentication issue, which I believe they still haven't acknowledged as a problem, being an example of why).

 

Apple fisherprice books are PCs, just the same as a Windows or Linux workstation.

 

Yep I've been a dual user... both Mac/PC since day one pretty much. Well at least as far back as the MacIICI and a very early version of the Texas Instruments994A - hahahahaha. No doubt others can beat those for their antiquity though.

I've always liked Macs... clean OS... but the price of the hardware is beyond dumb in my opinion. I owned ages ago... a Radius machine for the very brief bit that Apple actually licensed it OS out. A year or two tops before it killed that. If I recall better than anything Mac had going at the time... but they chose not to go the licensing OS route.

I generally tend not to get too caught up in the Mac VS PC wars because I find brand loyal numpties on both sides. It reminds me of the camera wars.. Nikon/Canon/Sinar/Mamiya... pfttt... while those tossers were arguing brands I was out shooting and cleaning up with a bit of each system.


----

I do remember when I started using PC's a bit more... I was blown away that you could actually go in get access to the registry and really screw it up. hahahaha... I can see why it's a neat thing to be able to tweak... but for the vast majority of users... hahah it's data suicide.

 

I am an IT professional. I recommend Microsoft Security essentials. It has been rated the top free antivirus by the IT community at lifehackerdotcom as well as other community sites. Make sure you uninstall Norton Properly. I forget if it has its own uninstaller. If it does, use it. If not, go through add/remove programs. Norton can be considered bloatware. It takes up a lot of resources and slows down your system. (Norton misses a lot of malware as well) AVG free is better but also takes up too many resources. (The old version was much better). Use MS security essentials as your 24/7 active scanner. Install malwarebytes as well. Use malwarebytes as your on demand scanner. Scan once a week- to once a month, depending on your usage. You should not have two active 24/7 scanning programs installed at the same time. (ex: Norton, AVG).


If you spot a virus (pop up style) open your task manager, end task on the questionable program, run malwarebytes. If malwarebytes wont run. Start the computer in safe mode with networking and run there. After boot back into normal windows. After Malwarebytes, download and install superantispyware, run it, then uninstall when done. If you are still having problems download and install trojan remover. Run and uninstall when done. That should get all of it. If you are still having issues, its probably time for a reformat. If MS finds a virus it also may be good idea to at least run malwarebytes afterwards to make sure that all malware is cleaned up. One antivirus program alone does not ever get them all. Be safe online and use common sense. Good Luck!!

 

Your "work stations"? So we're not talking about a home environment then that doesn't have expert ICT folks on hand to fix problems? Which is quite a bit different from what we're talking about right now. But thanks for that. We've already touched on the education issue and the fact that Windows home users are left vulnerable to everything and anything.

Awesome. Is this on your professionally maintained work based work station or your home PC? Either way it doesn't really matter given that you clearly know how to protect your PC and aren't going to be duped by a bit of ransomeware while shopping around for a free anti-virus application.

And speaking of work place worksations. That's where my main exposure to Windows is these days. Every single station runs like a dog. Every single station runs up against configuration issues every other month for no reason. The problem is so bad in fact we've been banned from accessing work e-mail from "production" machines as opposed to "general use" machines.

We all have our stories. Good and bad. In my experience Windows = bad. And that bad incidentally is not just the result of users. It's the totally idiotic Windows desktop interface that just takes you round and round in circles and obfuscates even the most simple of settings behind "wizards" and endless menus. It's the utter stupidity of the "Windows registry". In theory it sounds good. In practice it just doesn't work. And just why do error messages have to be rendered in hexadecimal notation? Talk about geek superiority masturbation-fest.

As for the additional software need to keep Windows running? Firewalls, antiv-virus software, registry cleaners, registry repair tools, defrag. And I'm pretty sure there's much more being pushed on Windows users. Just how does a home user or even a small business get by without anti-virus software?

Oh and lets not forget Windows 7's recovery console is the most useless version yet. Maintaining a Windows machine for those who have not done computer science means spending lots of money.

My only issue with Apple is really their totally unnecessary aggression towards just about everybody recently. Their users, developers and the competition.

They want to lock users into their platforms and sue any competition that gets in their way. Some of the so called IP they've registered in Europe is ridiculous. We're talking about really mundane things like a black rectangle.

 

You do know Microsoft have basically been caught buying off journalists and bloggers and employing astroturfers to massage anything and everything those sites report? Actually how much are Microsoft paying you? :thinking:

This issue I have with this sudden adoration with Microsoft's own brand security software is that just a year or two ago it was totally slated and considered nearly useless. It's a bit like the BP disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. The initial reports clearly stated the monitoring station ran Windows and frequently suffered BSODs. Then pretty quickly those references vanished. Now all of a sudden Microsoft are ramping up the hype for Windows 8 and security essentials is the bees knees.

I've already admitted I'm biased. But that just looks really fishy. However I genuinely hope for the sake of Windows users Microsoft really has done something concrete to shore up their security.

 

That's a lot of work to kill one virus. And why should you ever have to re-install Windows? Retail boxed copies of Windows still restrict you to 10 reinstalls. Many OEMs have gone back to not bothering to include a proper installation disc. Refortmat your hard drive is not the best advice for someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

 

Osu,


Hummmm, my feeling while recently reading a ton of apple blogs (I just got a McAir) was that 95% of these guys sounded like a paid infomercial.
... just the smell test, no hard data.


Osu!

 

Windows home users leave themselves vulnerable to everything and anything. That's not quite the same thing. People have plenty of problems with Linux for home use (*cough* sound drivers *cough*) but the advantage is that almost by definition a Linux user will either be, or know, someone competent enough to resolve the issue.

Absolutely true - but malware does exist for Linux (and is growing and spreading) and the attitude that seems to be given out, that Linux automatically makes you immune, is foolish. I suspect when the first wide-spread threat to Linux hits the wild that there's going to be a lot of people who're struck by it due to this arrogance.

Also please remember that Windows does not have a monopoly on vulnerabilities to malicious software. It was only last year that the Linux kernel guys fixed a six year old privilege escalation bug - it'd been known for those six years. Initially reported by SUSE engineers back in 2004 (to their credit, they patched it in SUSE), it took until 2010 to fix in the main kernel. No matter what OS you use you should make an effort to understand and mitigate the risks.

Oh, and it's on my home PC as well as work PCs that I've never had a virus or malware issue.

Yeah, that doesn't sound so much like a problem with the OS or machines as the admins. Not much you can do about having bad network administrators - whether they're Windows or Linux. Linux administrators, being a smaller group, tend to be less likely to be incompetent.

I've never had a problem with the interface in Windows, or on a Linux system. Again - maybe this is user based rather than a problem with the OS? Personal preference over objective judgment?

Works fine for me. Much more useful having a central configuration database than having individual files containing different sets of configuration data in different formats scattered over the system seemingly at random.

Well, they're not purely rendered in hexadecimal notation - they have text as well. The hexadecimal notation is a troubleshooting code, all you need to do is plug that in to something like eventid.net, or send it to Microsoft (or your admin) and they'll be able to tell within seconds which module's faulted. Linux has error codes in the same way - hardly a fair criticism given your professed preference.

Well let's see shall we? Firewalls and anti-virus, yep, but they're required on Linux machines as well. Registry cleaners and registry repair tools are very, very rarely anything other than scareware these days. Not really needed at all. Defrag is handy, but doesn't exactly need to be run daily. And why would anyone try to get by on any OS without anti-virus? The naivety of such a person beggars belief.

I've never done computer science and I'm perfectly capable of maintaining not just a Windows machine but a full Windows domain, with various Linux servers bound to the domain where we've found a use for them. The recovery console is incredibly powerful if you've not completely broken your system, and actually spend a little time learning how to use it, or are you going to tell me that without a little research your average Linux user can fix their driver issues?

My issue is partly that, but more to do with their refusal to admit that their OS (just like every other out there) might be less than perfect. It leads to them not trying to fix issues, and denying that they even happen, whereas Microsoft are at least willing to admit a fault and fix it as soon as possible. The open source community oscillate back and forth between the two.

I'm well aware of the IP wars going on. Enough to make me despair.

Name me a single major company that hasn't been doing this? Not that that excuses it, but at least they're no more corrupt than anyone else.

My own testing of it at the time showed that it was roughly equivalent to AVG Free (missed some threats which AVG picked up, but picked up some which AVG missed). Microsoft recommend that people use a commercial anti-virus package, but due to non-stop criticism by people like yourself they released a free solution which could be built-in (except they're not allowed to include it with the OS of course, due to yet more complaints by the same people who whine about the lack of protection).

Hmm. Yet I still fail to see how this is the fault of the OS rather than the people who wrote the monitoring software. Software written for Linux has bugs too, it isn't miraculously perfect just because it runs on Linux.

Your bias is quite obvious anyway. Microsoft would have liked to bundle anti-virus and defender into their OS, but lawsuits prevent them from doing this.

 

Yeah. You should see the Gizmodo article on Windows 8. It's quite embarrassing. It starts off all gushing about how awesome Windows 8 is. Then at the end admits most of it doesn't actually work yet. And it's fair enough Windows 8 isn't perfect yet. It's nowhere near release. But how can it be so awesome and so broken at the same time? Especially when Microsoft haven't shown anything they hadn't already released?

 

Since Linux is spread by word-of-mouth. Almost by definition you must know someone with some exposure to Linux before you'll discover it yourself. That's the nature of free open source software. The only sound driver issue I can think of at the moment is Creative X-fi. It doesn't work. There is no proper driver for it. Creative never got around to finishing it. If there's no driver for Windows or Mac you're similarly screwed.

Malware for Linux does indeed exist. Linux botnets even exist. However that malware to my knowledge targets badly protected systems like routers still using the manufacturers default password. The only other target platform for Linux that springs to mind off the top of my head is Android. And again that relies on social engineering to compromise the OS. The malware doesn't simply install it's self. It's installed by the user while it poses as a free game or some such.

In fact the Android Market demonstrates the strength of open source software repositories. Unlike most other Linux repositories Android software isn't really checked for vulnerabilities. It's a free for all. Which is not the case on Linux desktops.

Good for you. Never said Windows did have a monopoly in that arena. Linux has plenty of vulnerabilities. I have no problem admitting that. Right now Ubuntu 11.04 has some serious stability issues. God knows what Canonical did. I've never seen it so bad.

It very likely is the fault of bad administrators. But an overly complicated OS just compounds the problem. God knows we dread drop ship tests on our scanners. Someone keeps forgetting to tell the IT apes SCSI is fragile. Handle with care. Every single time they bend the pins and short out the cards. :bang:

Maybe I just like the simpler world of Linux.

Can't agree with you there. Config files in Linux are not scattered around the file system at random. There's a fairly standardised directory structure. Almost everything you'd want to edit as a home user can be found in /etc if it's a global setting, otherwise it's likely in a hidden sub-directory in your home directory. And Linux does have a GUI for most common settings.

Windows also has to duplicate some registry information in .ini files for compatibility. Which somewhat defeats the whole point of the registry. Since it was supposed to do away with .ini files.

No it is. The general uselessness of Windows error messages has been a cause for complaint amongst IT technicians for years. They just don't immediately give you any clue as to what's going on. When something doesn't work on Linux you check out /var/log/[enter your log of choice]. For example if it's a video issue you might take a look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log.

Code:

[    16.795] 
X.Org X Server 1.10.1
Release Date: 2011-04-15
[    16.795] X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
[    16.795] Build Operating System: Linux 2.6.24-29-server i686 Ubuntu
[    16.795] Current Operating System: Linux moonstone 2.6.38-11-generic-pae #49-Ubuntu SMP Mon Aug 29 21:07:33 UTC 2011 i686
[    16.795] Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.38-11-generic-pae root=UUID=f66a0ce6-c344-41ec-a488-1b24ee70cd48 ro quiet splash vt.handoff=7
[    16.795] Build Date: 11 August 2011  03:47:56PM
[    16.795] xorg-server 2:1.10.1-1ubuntu1.2 (For technical support please see http://www.ubuntu.com/support) 
[    16.795] Current version of pixman: 0.20.2
[    16.795] 	Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
	to make sure that you have the latest version.
[    16.795] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
	(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
	(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
[    16.795] (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Tue Sep 13 22:11:36 2011

Name a single virus aimed at desktop Linux users off the top of your head? Anti-virus software on Linux platforms with the exception of Android is generally aimed and cleaning up Windows virii. other than that the closest equivalent is Apparmor. Yes Linux has a firewall. A rather good one. Simple, effective and unobtrusive. The Windows built in firewall doesn't quite work so well.

The recovery console is useless. It won't touch a damaged NTFS partition beyond the very basics. One of the biggest problems with Windows is Microsoft have relied on third party companies to come in and produce to software needed to fix their OS when it goes wrong.

I'd partly agree there. Although Microsoft have been guilty of secretly fixing problems. Which is an issue if the fix introduces a new issue with existing software.

Apple are clearly on cloud cookoo land. Macbook Air's are routinely hacked faster than Windows laptops at hack-off events. They seem to have given up on Linux for some reason. Not that Linux is unhackable. It's not.

Perhaps. But if education is what we need to help people then the first thing people need to be taught is bloggers are very easily bought.

Microsoft got sued or threatened with a law suit because they allowed an industry to grow up around their product. And then threatened to pull the rug out from under those vendors at very short notice. I appreceaite Microsoft are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue. However they created that situation. Windows 3.1 and 3.11 came with Microsoft Anti-Virus. Then suddenly Windows 95 didn't.

Just as Microsoft had begun to figure out the importance of the Internet they ditched their own anti-virus product.

because way back in yeasteryear Microsoft decided stability was a third party software developer problem?

As I said. Microsoft used to bundle anti-virus. Then they didn't. they made their bed.

 

Back to the topic. I'm gonna be straight forward on this one. Norton Sucks. You need to google Norton Removal Tool and visit Norton's website for removal tools to uninstall it. Don't mean to get too technical here but Norton ties itself into your Network drivers so if you uninstall it the traditional way, people frequently have issues connecting to the internet afterwards and settings will have to be modified for it to work again. That's why they released a removal tool that does this for you, rather than just fixing the uninstaller. Go figure....

As for Security Essentials, I've never used it. Personally I use Panda Cloud because it's free and it's run off of a cloud server so it's less workload for your computer, thus making it run faster.

 

When have you ever seen hardware without a driver for Windows?

Nope - there's an ecosystem of malware out there which will target anything, and it's this arrogance about how Linux users are immune that means they end up infected.

Wrong - there are privilege escalation attacks inside Android which allow malware to install itself with admin rights, simply from the user viewing a message. The users themselves don't need to install anything or give permission for it to be installed.

Yes. This is why various bits of spyware, such as software containing a little trojan to intercept secure texts from your bank, are so prevalent in the Android Market. Seems a really strong model to me.

A large part of your argument was that Windows was vulnerable while Linux was not.

The OS is far from overly complicated. It's mostly highly intuitive - even for administration - until you get into the advanced stuff.

Definitely not simpler. Nowadays the interface is nearly identical in function. What about it, exactly, makes it simpler?

Or /lib, or /usr, or /bin. A lot of applications don't bother with a configuration gui.

Very few new applications use configuration files in Windows any more. Backwards compatibility with programs that were never designed to use the registry does, shockingly, require that duplication.

And if the error message you get is "obsolete routing request made", or "Unknown terminal type linux"? Two of the more common error messages. Aren't they useful.

As to Windows error messages, except for STOP errors you get a detailed message logged in the event log. STOP errors you only need to note down the code, and they're generally hardware errors. The code is usually the hardware identifier.

The Windows firewall works fine - have you ever tried it or are you just assuming because it's Microsoft it isn't as good? I've actually had PEN tests run against both Linux and Windows environments, as well as mixed, and the firewalls are functionally equivalent.

As for Linux viruses:
- Virus.Linux.Alaeda
- Virus.Linux.Kagob.a and Virus.Linux.Kagob.b
- Virus.Linux.Rike

To name a few.

Yep, it could do with some data recovery tools built in, but then again if your hard drive's dying you'll probably be buying a new one anyway. If you've got backups then it's not really an issue.

Or that, like reviews, bloggers are just advertising channels.

Microsoft Antivirus was supplied by a company called Central Point software, who were purchased by Symantec, then the product integrated into Norton. After that it was probably a little harder for Microsoft to license.

It wasn't their own - it was licensed by a company who were purchased and swallowed by Symantec in 1994.

Which it kinda is - in both Linux and Windows, and any other OS. If you are writing an application it is your responsibility to make sure that it is stable. If you cannot do this then you shouldn't be writing software.

They used to license someone else's antivirus software - then that company was purchased by Symantec. They didn't get a huge amount of choice in the matter.

 

Hmm lets see. We have two Kodak scanners in work that have no windows drivers. One is a microfilmer and the other is one of their smaller document scanners. They have no windows drivers and no windows software. The smaller document scanner sits and does nothing but gather dust. The microfilmer can only be used via a virtual machine running MS-DOS.

Beyond my own place of work Windows seems to encounter driver issues every time there's a major upgrade to the OS. Drivers were either unavailable or didn't work properly moving from 3.x to 9x. XP, XP sp3, Vista and W7 all broke the driver model requiring new drivers to be written and installed. XP and vista were particularly bad. In XP there were issues getting drivers for USB scanners and printers. Often people would have to fall back on NT drivers. With Vista the major driver issue was graphics. just about ever major graphics card/chip developer was late with their drivers. Broadband ISP's also had quite a few setup issues moving from XP to Vista and Vista to Windows 7.

If memory serves me correctly Windows 9x had serious issues with USB, sound driver configuration was often a problem and DirectX which was a major selling point of Windows 95 didn't show up until months after the initial release of Windows 95.

Interesting. I'll need to check that out again.

No it wasn't. My argument was Linux isn't as vulnerable as Windows and I still believe that to be true.

Well it's debatable if the Windows interface is actually intuitive. And the same goes for desktop Linux. But an OS is more than just it's interface. Windows was built using bad design decisions. Which even Steve Ballmer admitted. It's the reason the micro kernel project was effectively cancelled. When Microsoft's developers tried to reduce the Windows kernel to it's bare essentials they discovered horrors like low level subroutines that had high level subroutine dependencies and DLL's that contained totally unrelated code purely for the purpose of making Windows faster.

Windows tends to be full of "wizards" that break everything down into painfully tiny little steps.

I have to admit I'm struggling to think of anything I'd need to configure in those directories as a home user.

Sorry that's just not true. Windows has more places for storing configuration data than you can shake a stick at. Even if applications aren't using .ini files they're using other files. Typically XML formatted files. Appdata would be an example where configuration data is stored outside the registry. Explorer also uses .ini files for each folder you look at.

Never had those errors.

Yes I have tried it. I was a Windows user before I switched. And I have Windows 7 on a VM. I can't criticise something if I've never used it.

Never heard of them. Are they live in the wild?

Not everybody has upto the minute backups. Especially home users. And data recovery is for more than just dying hard drives. I recently had to fix a borked NTFS partition. The PC had lost power without Windows being able to shut down properly. This seemingly left the partition in a "RAW state". None of Microsoft's suggestions for fixing it worked. In the end I had to rescue the owners data with a Xubunu disc. Xubuntu mounted the disc and read it just fine. Windows recovery console wouldn't even look at it. Given the amount of software on the market for fixing this problem. I'd say it's quite common.

Microsoft really need to get a grip on that.

Yes and no. Really depends on the blogger. Professional bloggers. Definately. Amatures are a mixed bag.

Yeah I don't buy that as an excuse. Quite a few Microsoft technologies started life as someone else's technology and Microsoft either bought it, licensed it or muscled in on it. Microsoft used to rely on Novell for decent networking for example. That didn't stop them implementing their own networking protocols. I'm also having a hard time imagining Norton turning down a licensing deal with Microsoft.

 

How does something running on a server protect your system at boot time?