MCMAP or army combatives

Discussion in 'MMA' started by roninmaster, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    ok so i recently watched a documentary on millitary hand to hand combat and i'm at a loss.

    to me it seems like the army is training there students how to fight better then the marines MCMAP system. let me go into further detail. aside from of course other than non trainable factors both systems cover weapons, and bare fist combat. however from what i've seen the army combatives being more recent seems to have enphasised applications and tons competitive sparring as its main bringer of skill. i've not seen as much sparring or competing from the marines.

    this is the documentary i saw. this is the army part

    [ame=""]Military Combatives MMA Mixed Martial Arts - Close Combat - Part 1 - Recon - The Pentagon Channel - YouTube[/ame]

    this is the marine part.

    [ame=""]Military Combatives MMA Mixed Martial Arts - Close Combat - Part 2 - The Pentagon Channel - YouTube[/ame]

    i understand both have the difficult task of properly training you in a slow amount of time, however to me it seems like the army's format of doing it through making you fight seems to do it better.

    this seems kinda of weird since the marines are first fight.

    if i'm wrong please tell me.
  2. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I'm a former Jarhead from way back when. You have to understand something, to the military hand to hand combat is near the bottom of the things that need to be trained. If you get to the point where you are fighting with a knife or your bare hands things have gone horribly wrong. I don't want to hit you, I want to shoot you, from far away. Or better yet have someone drop some artillery or a bomb on you.

    I read a quote from the MSGT who is the inventor of MAC. (Larsen?) He said its purpose was to help you survive until your buddies with guns get there.

    I know when I was in boot bayonet fighting was more important that H2H and even that was used more for developing an aggressive attitude and the warrior spirit. And we did live training with that using pugel sticks.

    [ame=""]Pugil Sticks - YouTube[/ame]

    BTW, pugel stick are serious fun and way cool. Semper Fi!
  3. february

    february Valued Member

    Man, thanks for this. All we need to do now is roll out this response to everyone who claims that their martial art is based on some deadly unarmed military combat system.
  4. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    First I will state my credentials for my opinion. I am currently a US Marine. I am a Scout Sniper in the US Marines. To clear that up, I'm at the top of the food chain as far as regular infantry goes. I am also a green belt in MCMAP.

    That said, MCMAP is a complete joke as far as training to fight goes UNTIL you get into the upper black belt levels. It is STILL a joke if you're a black belt, unless you're the one teaching in Quantica VA, and do it ALL the time. Then you suck as a Marine, because you don't know how to use radios, weapon systems, tactics, etc..

    If anyone, and I mean ANYONE talks about how badass they are because they know MCMAP, they are either 1.) A newb to the corps who actually thinks being in the corps automatically makes them a badass and they are sorely mistaken, 2.) are a civilian who knows NOTHING, or 3.) just an idiot in general.

    MCMAP sucks, most of it isn't aplicable, it isn't trained constantly at all in the infantry side of the corps or effectively in the non infantry side, it's useless, it's pathetic, it makes me angry. I would like to take a bayonet and shove it up whoever made up MCMAP's butt. And then every instructor who thinks they know anything because they know MCMAP. And then I would love to stomp on their heads. And then throw them in the river. And then flood the river with oil and burn it. Then nuke the river. I hate it. . . . . i HATE it, if the language and things I wanted to say about this didn't vilate MAP's rules the ammount of hateful things that would fly from my fingertips would fill up the entire bandwidth of MAP. And that's just about MCMAP. If I ranted on about how messed up the corps actually is . . . . . . there isn't enough space on all of the internet.

    DO NOT PURSUE MCMAP AT ALL. Waste of your time.

    Hope this was of some help ; D.
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Defendu and Krav - only a short time spend learning hand to hand and knife work.

    It's just not applicable anymore.

    also - afghans have their own traditional clothed wrestling. Its a sport that was encouraged by the taliban. Never go hand to hand with an afghan.
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Are you kidding me? Taliban isn't as hardcore and badass as the media projects. Nor is most of the "Taliban" real "Taliban" as they are people just picking up their rifles because they think somebody is trying to invade them. Ask the average Afghan in their country who America is and why we are there . . . . they wont know, some wont even know we're in their country. This isn't small scale stuff either. Some of the people there fighting us are actually from other countries too, who travel just to kill Americans. What is in the media, what has been reported, how we have approached this war and what we continue to do is such a joke . . . . .. I'm going to refrain from letting how emotional, angry, and dissapointed I am about this come out. So I digress from further comments about Afghanistan : P.
  7. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Ero-Sennin, Semper Fi bro.

    From an REMF who was in a long time ago (71-74) we spent some time in boot with H2H and bayonet and then never did it again. The Corps was interested in how well I did my job (aviation supply) because it kept birds in the air and being able to shoot in case I had to fill in on a defensive perimeter and being able to pass the PFT, I guess in case I had to run to the perimeter to use my awesome shooting skills.

    Keep safe man.
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I didnt mean to offend you! you seem to have over reacted to my comment

    Actually i was not talking about their training in military action (they are just randomers with guns) but more on the fact that their native MA is pretty similar to judo. considering, like mongolia, its something they do as kids and is pretty was pretty ingrained in their culture, their prolly pretty good. i wonder how afghans would fair in freestyle wrestling comps?
    my comment was like saying "how would an MCMAP guy fair against a mongolian wrestler"?
    my comment on the taliban was so no one would say "Oh the taliban prolly banned MA for them anyway" they didnt. the taliban even liked body building (no legs showing though) because it in their eyes "a powerful sport"

    They never militarised MA training in afghanistan. i wasnt saying any of that rubbish.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  9. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I return your Semper Fi under the terms you were another human being who had to deal with the Marine Corps, and as an individual (who probably had it a lot tougher being you were in an older corps) who I'm sure suffered many of the same things I have under this (dis)oraganization. I cannot return a Semper Fi under the terms of just being a Marine and the "honor, courage, commitment" slogan and tradition that is no longer true of the corps in my eyes. Much different time now though in my service and yours.

    PFT's are ridiculous though aren't they! They did incorporate a new method to measure physical ability (much more applicable to the grunts) called the CFT (combat fitness test) that is actually quite a break off. Much more HIIT type stuff.

    By the way, thankyou so much for your service in the past. Air has helped/saved our butts so many times and was often our life blood. Couldn't do what we did without that part and in some way, the Marines now are a product of your knowledge and abilities. So thankyou, from the bottom of my heart.
  10. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I apologize if I came off as you offending me! No intent to do that and I'm not offended at all. I went off on an entirely different tangent, all my fault!

    Only thing I saw that might have to do with martial arts in Afghanistan was a little boy running about ten feet and drop kicking a little girl in the face. Not funny to most people, but for guys sitting around hating their lifes and thinking the most horrible of things, at the time it was HILARIOUS.
  11. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    So basically i was right in my assumptions? something i've noticed is the army has become increasingly competitive in there martial arts training like having the MAC tournaments and allowing fighting with weapons. i've yet to see really anything like that with the marines.

    Kinda ironic really.
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I think its more to keep the infantry occupied.

    you have to realise. a lot of objectives now are capture not kill. we're not fighting Nazi's anymore.
  13. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    You VERY rarely see infantry in the Marines practicing this crap : P.

    Objective is to capture and not kill. Often results in capture, and almost immediate release too, so it does nothing. This applys to cases with people who LITERALLY have HME residue or gunpowder on their hands, or were in an actual firefight against us military forces. This mentality we have also causes military personel to get needlesly killed along with other things >: O. I hate it so much : (.
  14. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    The Marine Corps has actually barred exposure to the MMA world, preventing marines from persuing certain opportunities the UFC wanted to give them. The reason? "We don't want to be associated with the kind of people in the UFC, it'll mess up our image." And in the civilian eyes . . . . we train to kill for a living. What kind of people do you want to be presented as? Carebears?
  15. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I understand where you are coming from man, to me Semper Fi is a greeting between people who have shared a common hardship in becoming Marines and a common bond having spent time serving in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

    Trust me, when you have been out long enough you will look back over your time in the Corp and think, what the hell was wrong with me. :)
  16. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    so basically to perpetuate the stereotype of walking death machine martial artists we have been trying to escape from, as well as giving the recruits this false since of security of how truly lethal there moves are?
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

  18. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Not really. Marines are riflemen, 1st and foremost. In boot every time you hit the rack you recited this:

    This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

    My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I WILL...

    My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. WE WILL HIT...

    My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...

    Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.

    So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

    This is what the Marines focused on when I was in. Even as a supply clerk in the air wing we had to spend our time on the rifle range.
  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I understand you in the way only somebody who has been part of it can. Semper Fi brother.
  20. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Absolutely. It's disgusting.

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