I really want your honest thoughts: There has always been a problem with large organizations like the WKSA with what some people say is "Just pass them they will leave after they get a black belt". Why should a Martial Art Instructor pass a student who can not do the minimum physical test AND/OR can does not even know what they are suppose to do. In other words, if they can't do it or tell me how to do it, why should they pass. We have discussed this in other threads so i would like your thoughts here! i always used 4 categories during my testings of students = if you tell me what and how to do something but are unable to do it correctly, you can pass. if you can do it but not explain it all to me, you can pass if you can tell me and show me, you pass. if you can not do any of these "You need more practice, try again next month." (don't give up on them, keep encouraging them, working with them and teaching them until they do pass) i have always had a problem with schools (any not just MA schools) that say oh, just pass them they will get it next semester. This is NOT teaching, this is passing the buck. If you are a professional that markets Martial Art Instruction then where do you draw the line in passing people the next rank? Are you afraid that they will quit, so pass them? I need to make my rent this month so let's get that testing fee ASAP? come on folks let's hear it!
I'm not in the WKSW and I am not an instructor, but with that caveat out of the way I'd say that based on the above, even your own criteria for testing appears too lenient.:dunno:
Let me explain a bit more: If a student is unable to do something due to physical problems but understands the curriculum inside and out they should be allowed to pass(as long as they are trying there best). If they get the basics of understandings and can do it then they should pass. If they know it and do it, they pass. Each person has limitations that have to be considered. Not everyone is Bruce Lee! :bow1:
I am not an instructor, but I would handle it this way. If you cannot do something perfectly, but can explain it=pass If you can do something, but cannot answer basic questions about it=fail No black belt parrots allowed! If your performance is sub par(for that individual student)=judgement call Everyone has bad days or test anxiety The key here is this. Yes, the curriculum dictates what is required to pass, but each student should be evaluated against themselves as well. I'm assuming 3-4 years of training would give the instructor a valid benchmark to track that students progress and allow them the judgement to decide if that progress is significant enough to warrant promotion.
i agree with Xanth but as another thread was going on with, some Large Associations do not have the Quality control that follows this thought process. They see Dollars and they want as many black belt fees (non refundable) they can get. i disagree with your use of the word fail... EVERY WKSA school has this posted: "We NEED MORE PRACTICE!", if someone can not answer basic questions then they did not pass they need to go back to the "Wood Shed," and practice, practice, practice (mentally). As we all should know each person gets out of the Martial Arts what they put into it. An instructor's job is to teach them the whole curriculum and have them know it and able to do it. So if the instructor does not have these standards the large associations do not care.
This is how it is done in my WKSA school. I'll explain it and show you how it's done, if you improve you understand, if you don't I'll explain it again until you understand. if you improve to a level above the last time you tested you pass. if you cannot do any of these "I need more practice" TEACHING? Your students wear a white belt that is a blank sheet. It is the instructor who is the artist. I'll create art with anyone who will dedicate the time and effort. And together we will turn that blank sheet into the best MAist that that student can be. I'm not cloning myself I'm hoping the student out performs me, and I would never leave the responsibility solely on the shoulders of the student. While it is his/her journey it is my direction that keeps them on the path. That is valuable and that is STANDARDS. That is what professional MAist do... not blowhards
Obewan. I am glad your school can teach each student and have them learn all the requirements for each belt rank. You are a very rare breed in the WKSA. After over 1 decade teaching in the WKSA and being a judge at several schools testings. I have noticed that your school is not the norm. I wish it was. I "FAILED" several people that did not even know Too Ki (13) Mohk Joul Li Ki (5) Bahng Too Ki (10) Yahng Sohn Mohk Soo (15) Ssahng Soo (15) or Dahn Doh Mahk Ki (15) and they promoted to 1 dan. They were adults not kids. Please explain this?
Tulsa I wasn't there and I don't know the situation of the students or the instructors. I wouldn't judge the students on the quantity of the material. Look I've been to several testings held before tournaments or at other gatherings as I'm sure you have too. I look at it this way IMO it's not the students fault. The minimum requirements should be met I think we agree on that. To put a student up for testing when they aren't ready is the instructors fault. I cannot punish the student for that, it's just not right. I think that is how Kuk Sa Nim sees it as well. "Two wrong don't make a right" Put yourself in his place dealing with multitudes of personalities and attitudes trying to keep everything in check is a big task and if you think nothing is going to slip through the cracks well that's just unrealistic. As I said before that is collateral damage. Kuk Sa Nim and the other Masters want high standards. But it can only be acquired by the individual schools. It's not just a WKSA problem it is an industry problem brought about by unqualified instructors. Has WKSA contributed to the problem I think we can agree that it has. The franchise should to some extent help to keep the unqualified instructors in WKSA to a minimum. I don't however think that it will totally eliminate the problem. But we can keep our own yard clean. And I will always hold my students progress as most important to attain their individual goals not mine. I believe that will create success both professionally and personally.
This I agree totally with! Suh In Hyuk and his masters do want high standards but to me it looks like there standards dropped a hell of a lot during the 90's when the WKSA started to grow way to fast. Now it has become damage control for them. I know that Kuk Sool that i learned was taught to me as very high standards and if you just showed up 2 days a week for class and did not practice at home you probably would never see black. In the 90's it changed to if you pay us and just show up black in 27 months (3 months between belts and one year between Dahn Boh Nim and Black). I was hearing from almost every under black that their teacher wanted them to start testing ASAP after they go Dahn Boh Nim. some tested in less that a month. Then came the change in the curriculum in the early 00's. The WKSA saw a problem and finally acted on it. they actually made a Stripe curriculum. This was good but I was taught after you learned everything for your Black Belt you had a year to study it, refine it then after you get it down and understand it then you would can promote, not after you just finished learning the last set of techniques. The WKSA is always growing and changing, I hope for the better. I wish it all the best! I just can not teach for it. i felt my hands where tied and could not compete in my market with out "dumbing down the standards." it is hard to compete with a school that you can get your black belt in 18 months with out learning mush of anything. The general public does not know the difference between TKD, MMA, KS, Chop Suey or KF. And they mostly do not care. since they use there "Entertainment Dollars" on lessons ie they want to be entertained. If they hear it takes a MINIMUM of 3 to 5 years to get a black belt then they do not want to commit themselves to the time. People in general are lazy. So how does a ma ateacher over come that... and trying to convince them it is worth the while to train that long, on someone that has never set a foot in a MA school before is hard to do. I have always thought Kuk Sool should have a some kind of "2 year program that would get someone to a rank of Black Something, to allow them to compete with the low time requirements of other styles. Not just push them thru as fast as possible.
Business is business... You going to turn away customers? effectivly that seems to be what could arise! Let your premium students excel, encourage those ones, offer additional work for those that want it. Bear in mind, that this is a hobby. Nothing more for the majority of people.
sorry shibby but a teacher teaches a business person has your attitude. if it is only a business then why do they call us Martial Art Instructors / Teachers. I have a degree in Education I teach i do not just let the cream come up to the top. I want everyone I teach to be the best they can be. If we where just businessmen then why have high standards for education. Why So much stuff to learn? Would it not be easier just to teach them a simple form and a few techniques between belts, have lots of different color belts to charge more belt fees?
Well, personally, I feel instructors need to be more strict... Like, I did absolutely Horrrrible when I was trying to demonstrate some form (I was in a horrible mood, which caused me to mess up, so I got into an even worse mood, and screwed up more) and I got a 7/10. What the hell? I deserved somewhere around 1-3/10, not 7, it feels kind of insulting because what if I don't know I'm screwing up somewhere and I somehow get a 10/10? When I asked my teacher about it he said that the instructors know better than the students, well, when you screw up every single technique you were trying to do (and re-do a few), you don't deserve a 7. =_="... So... Don't be rude about it, but please be honest with your students...
We set standards in life for a reason. Just because a person can 'explain' something does not mean that they are worthy of being promoted. Otherwise, what is the point of having those standards? "You have to be able to do a backflip to pass...unless you can't. Then it's OK." just doesn't cut it with me. This really frustrated me while I was training (currently deployed so no training) and other students as well. You can say that people have physical limitations and you are right. But those same limitations aren't just going to go away once you pass them to the next level. Do you really want a black belt student that can't even perform the more basic moves, but can explain them? It's nothing against the individual, it's life. Not everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.
Wow...are you saying that you know of a current WKSA school in which a person can grade to BB in 18 months? Seems extremely fast to me. Unless that person practiced 7 days a week....effectively putting in the same overall mat-hours as someone who promoted to BB in 4 years via attendance of 3x/week route. But if they did put in all those hours of hard work and didn't really learn much of anything....this sounds like a serious flaw of the instructor.
well you have a number of issues don't you 1) lack of oversight by the WKSA - or its local national oficers 2) poor practices in training and grading by school heads 3) poor quality of students Now what does an MA instructor do? He teaches He runs a business Within that business he is responsible for financial, health a safety, business promotion, training, quality control and anything else you can think of But most instructors are missing some key things: no formal teaching qualifications no business admin qualifications (or even experience) no understanding of sport science or sports management OK, so an instructor has to get a black belt before he can teach. But is that a teaching qualification? Its not. Nor does it give any kind of overview of the skills required to run a business. Nor does it give any kind of training in sports coaching Whats the answer? A start would be that anyone who acts as an instructor should only be allowed to do so only following successful completion of an external authorised body such as this http://www.sportscoachuk.org/index.php In reality the MA orgs themselves should be signed up to schemes such as this - and be open to external quality audit and scrutiny The schools cant improve unless the org improves, and the org WILL NOT improve unless its shortcomings are open to critique, support and advice.
I actually think there does need to be some flexibility in the requirements. Due to physical limitations and what not. But it's hard to set really solid grading criteria when you do have that flexibility, so it depends on the common sense of the examiner. Let's take a hypothetical example - let's say I can explain and effectively teach a technique to someone, but I can't do it myself because say... a shark bit off a significant amount of the muscle on my thigh and I just don't have the strength. Then compare me to someone who can perform the technique but doesn't understand it properly and is unable to explain the principles of the technique. Who is better? There is of course no real answer. But then again up comes the performance vs. teaching skills argument.
If you start to fail everyone who dont meet up to your standards you will have an extremely small school. Including a few people who are knowlegable, and a few who have real talent. It is business though, if you want to make a living out it then you need to treat it as such. Its fairly simple. Some people will take is seriously some wont, like i said to the vast majority its only a hobby, others take the hobby a little to serious, and to others its life. Many people dont have the money, or most importantly the time to learn to achieve their best.... work commitments, family. This is a sort of escape from it all, maybe keep fit also, learn some cool things. Many people dont have the talent for it, many dont have the intelligence to remmeber so much and recall it. Should these people be punished by not progressing them. I have seen all different kinds of students, and all different kinds of blackblets, while yes i do agree the standard of the average blackbelt was higher years ago, the training was also MUCH harder, much of which probably wouldnt get away with now due to health and safety, these instructors had day jobs also. Now you can make your hobby/passion your career and make money out of it, really practice your own thing, and encourage others. Like i said earlier, let the ones that take it seriously and your talented students rise. These are the ones you can show off to the public and win your tournaments or whatever they are being judged on. Let the others do their 2 classes a week, and look after their kids at night. Up to you though. Choice seems fairly simple to me.... Have a few students that are good and work 2 jobs. Or Have your passion as your job, really big school with a few exceptional students. I promise you, you cant have both. EDIT:- p.s I might have sounded harsh. I respect your ideals. In fact we would have a really high standard if everyone was the same. However in my opinion we would also have a small MA and it wouldnt be at all practical. Side note I fully believe that the ones teaching have the best opportunity to be best, and i believe that they ARE the best. They have the talent, now they have the time etc. Take a good, or talented MAist, give them a school, then they will be really good! Time!!!! Although there are a few freaks that fall outside of this......
Most likely true for the majority of MA instructors, but we'd be fooling ourselves not to admit there COULD be an exeption. About the "test anxiety" issue mentioned, I feel as if failure to perform adequately due to this phenomenon should result in a failing grade, SIMPLY because MA is about learning to overcome fears, etc. as well as being about physical techniques of combat. 'nuff said! This is the conundrum that was never really addressed IMO — What does it mean to be a MA black belt? For some it apparently means the person should be capable of teaching on at least a minor level, and for others it means the person should represent some pinnacle of skill and/or technique. Still others want BOTH of these criteria. I had always gone under the assumption that a person with a MA black belt was to be considered as an *expert* (whatever that means - LOL). Using "expert" doesn't really help as the onboard dictionary in my computer tells me this: So take your pick: "knowledge of" OR "skill in" a particular field. And I suppose the POV differs from one instructor to another. But given this way of explaining what it means to be a black belt, then if someone CAN'T perform the skill required on a test, being able to EXPLAIN it seems to be a viable alternative in allowing a passing grade. And in regard to the topic of this thread, allow me to share this tidbit which occured to me last night. If I were Obewan, I'd claim I had an "epiphany" (LOL), and even though I've been accused of being *overly dramatic* at times, I'm much more comfortable with the word, "revelation" {}. Now I don't know if the "master" who told tulsa that colored-belt students were only good for paying the bills, and that one should only bother with teaching black-belt students, was korean or not, but if he was then perhaps he was trying to explain an old tradition in a bungling sort of way (not to mention the language barrier problem). I personally don't know if it was a korean tradition, but I have heard of it being done by the chinese. The master is expected to develop an "inner circle" of trusted students, whose job it is to "teach" the general student body of the school. In return, he shows them the *real deal* WRT the techniques. How this works is that the general student body learns a *dumbed-down* version of the MA, which is only 50-65% effective as compared to about a 85-90% effectiveness ratio garnered by the inner circle. So if this "old tradition" of not giving high-quality instruction to the masses is fully embraced, the only thing that's different is that the *inner circle* is being identified by the belt-rank system, which wasn't employed in the paradigm I explained in the previous paragraph. Hopefully this makes enough sense which means I need not expound further. Certainly by upholding this *tradition* of shabby instruction to the general public, reserving quality instruction for your inner circle of black-belt students, would be one way to help simplify the complexities associated with the business side of running a MA school. I feel it to be unethical, but it would explain the behaviour I've witnessed in many a MA instructor whose eyes *squinch* more than mine. Try reading instead of skimming, and you'll discover that tulsa was talking about the *market competition* in his local area, most likely TKD/kartate schools. EDIT: Ha! I was right... see for yourself: POST #38
