Matt Thornton's comments on Silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by TomFurman, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. TomFurman

    TomFurman New Member

    This is from's SBG (straightblastgym) forum.
    "From: Matt Thornton
    Date: 11/13/06 04:28 PM
    Member Since: 01/01/2001
    3097 Total Posts Ignore User
    Last edited:13-Nov-06 04:34 PM

    "When you see "interesting throws/submissions which aren't typically seen" in functional grappling arts like Judo, wrestling, greco, sambo, etc, then there is usually a reason why. And no, despite mythology it is almost never because they are "too dangerous". Nine times out of ten it is simply because they are silly. Silat on a whole tends to be one of the absurd Martial Arts groups that found its way past the censors of the critical mind.

    I sometimes wonder how many people consider the fact that many of these more comic book like Martial Arts have simply been made up, and rest in almost no practical application? Martial Artisits on a whole tend to be a very gullible lot. But we only get caught when we want to be seduced."

    I guess, the 6'-8", former boxer, former soldier, BJJ Blackbelt is still pouting from getting tossed by a un-named, Pacific NW Silat Instructor, Green Beret, some years ago when he was still a Blue Belt in BJJ.
  2. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Un-named 5'10" Pacific NW Silat Instructor, Green Beret and high-school wrestler. Must have been the high-school wrestling that made the difference. :rolleyes:

    We knew Matt some years back. For some reason we never did get around to adding him to the Christmas card list. Can't imagine why.
  3. Silat4life

    Silat4life New Member

    Of course it's the wrestling, what else can it be? :rolleyes:

    We know it's not the 40+ yr's of silat training. ;)

    Just think I choosed volleyball over wrestling IN high school, DAMNIT. :eek:
  4. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Mr. Thorntons views on silat are quite well know, and he tends to mention it in most of his interviews.

    He's speaking from a place on limited knowledge, and doesn't seem to understand that while BJJ is a great art for the mat, trying to use it in the same manner in a real confrontation, with blades, glass on the floor, multiple attackers, etc... would be innefective. He also needs to understand that while being 6'8" gives you a great advantage in a BBJ tournament, it's quite the opposite in a real confrontation, particularly against sharp knives. There is more of the person at which to slice, cut, stab and maim.

    Ultimately, he is entitled to his opinion, and so long as he is happy with what he's doing, then good luck to him. Ultimately, we all get tested on our actions and comments at sometime or another.

    Also remember what happened to that famous MMA champion in London, when he got attacked outside a nightclub and almost stabbed to death.
  5. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Eloquently put Wal :D

    The Ol' MMA ultimate street defense spiel has become so tedious it hardly warrants a response anymore.

    I bet he couldn't he get his gloves on quick enough :p
  6. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    Matt has a good reputation for some things, but like most people in the public eye, he thinks knowledge of one thing gives him insight into another. Since it is the perogative of fools, etc, I will drop all pretense of secrecy here. If Stevan Plinck drop-kicked Matt into another time zone and Matt doesn't have the stones to own up to his shortcomings, the *probably* good knowledge he has about grappling altogether is thrown into a suspicious light, to say the least. Character counts.

    I was thinking once, right after I had a knife jammed into my knee; "God DAMN it, but this is painful. I sure can't wait to inspire this feeling in others." I'm sure Matt thought something similar the first time he was in a triangle choke. So we have evidence upon ourselves that what we do works, we have firsthand knowledge. I think the difference is ego...I can be confident in what I do without having to down what Matt does. But I also don't feel like I have anything to prove.

    This is another example of only seeing one side of a two sided coin. Because Matt lost doesn't make grappling bad. because Stevan won doesn't make Silat great. It is ever the artist not the...Oh, the hell with it, you know the drill.

    But it is discouraging. When you publicly announce things like "Silat on a whole tends to be one of the absurd Martial Arts groups that found its way past the censors of the critical mind" it makes me question if you have anything resembling an education at all, or if you're just parroting someone else's thoughts because you can't draw a conclusion on your own. You see, a *CRITICAL* mind is analytical. The objective consciousness can look at a thing with unbiased eyes and judge the worth for himself. He does not need "proof", he needs "facts". If you are truly critical in approach, you can see the pro & con of anything & take what is essential from it WITHOUT being influenced by popular opinion. But one must consider the source: Why would you publicly try to humiliate something unless there was gain in it for you? Does this help with your DVD sales? Do more people come to your seminars? Or do you just enjoy raising a feeling of animosity among other martial artists?

    We don't lengthen our straws by shortening everyone else's.
  7. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Old Argument

    I've had several variations of this argument online in the martial arts newsgroups. Usually starts when a MMA guy allows as how modern MMA training is the only "alive" way to train, and that anybody who doesn't do it that way is wasting their time.

    Then you can take it to the bank they will say that if _________(fill in the blank with any traditional art) worked, then the guys who did it would be kicking ass and taking names in the ring, and since they aren't, it must not work.

    I had one of these guys once, in all seriousness, say that any blue belt BJJ guy with a little striking practice could beat any black belt in any traditional style.

    Really? I said. What if we were in a bar and I used a bar stool as a flail to get things going?

    Wouldn't matter, he said. MMA is king.

    Ah. So when that ring-champion caught the guy who sideswiped his car in San Francisco and the guy pulled out a gun and shot him, what happened there?

    Usually I stipulate that in a MMA ring against a twenty-something guy who trains eight hours a day, gobbles steroids, and bench presses Volvos, I wouldn't have a prayer. Then I wonder aloud that if we changed the rules a little -- he got to bring his Speedos and I got to bring my knives, how would that go?

    They get all huffy. Yeah, well, we know how to fight dirty, too!

    You can't win this argument. These guys equate winning match with referees and judges and ring doctors standing by with streetfighting. Yeah, I'll give 'em that they are tough and can take punishment and dish it out, but it doesn't seem to be enough that they are good, they have to point out loud and repeatedly that everybody else is no good.
  8. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    LOL I've had a really bad day, but this really cheered me up :D
  9. TomFurman

    TomFurman New Member

    I guess those five guys that got tossed overboard from the yacht in the Middle East by Cliff Stewart did not have enough "mat time" in to deal with Cliff's dead training methods.

    What is kind of funny is that SouthNarc who is basically traditional jiujitsu, Pekiti Tirsia, Silat, and MuayThai (along with some blood curdling street time) is given WIDE berth by these "Alive" guys. I mean Paul Sharp is about pro MMA for police work as you can get,...and he does joint seminars with S'Narc.

  10. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Matt should go visit Guru Harold Koning and see if his "mat" time will save his life.
  11. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Actually come to think about it he could probably also improve his life aswell with his shamanism : )
  12. bela diri

    bela diri Valued Member


    I was going to say something & add my two pence, but i really can not be bothered to give any time to this subject or his ego.

    If only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    bela diri
  13. RunningDog

    RunningDog Valued Member

    Got a link?

    Is that some kind of proof that MMA is rubbish for self-defence?
    If it is, let's have a challenge: find links to news articles on martial artists who've been stabbed, we'll collate the results and produce a nice pie chart on Excel, which will prove who sux the mostest.

    Edit: I guess you mean Lee Murray ... in a massive brawl involving knives. He should've done Silat, then he would have been fine right?
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006
  14. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Easy tiger... calm down and take a deep breath.

    I didn't say MMA was useless for self defence. Read my post properly.

    The same way Lee Murray got stabbed is the same way that the best silat man in the world can get stabbed. There are never any guarantees.

    The point is that it's not sensible to say that 'x,y or z' is innefective on the street, and that 'a,b or c' is much better. My point was quite ovious. It's all fine saying that 'aliveness' training is the best, but when you introduce weapons into the equation, you need to ensure that your training at least caters for their use in some way. If you don't, then your the 'mostest' guilty of the same things you are accussing others of.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2006
  15. Cowardly Lurker

    Cowardly Lurker New Member

    Most of this straw man argument is actually quite the opposite of what I've seen. Most of the MMA guys I've ever talked to or listened to, whether online or in real life, ARE traditional martial artists who are crosstraining into multiple arts (thus the mixed part). While they do generally espouse pressure testing and "alive" training, they don't generally tend to knock any TMA that attempts to train in such as way that there is empirical evidence of tangible skills being learned.

    As for the BJJ blue belt taking on a Black Belt in a TMA, I wouldn't say it's outside the realm of possibility. I've seen some really, really skilled BJJ blue belts. I guess it would depend upon the two individuals involved.

    And the idea that ANYONE could stop a bullet if someone pulls out a gun to shoot you is absurd. The reality is that everyone is vulnerable to being shot by a random nutjob, no matter how much you train. To suggest that he was shot because he didn't study a TMA or would have been better prepared just doesn't make sense.

    I know this is a bit off topic, and I apologize. I have no practical knowledge of Silat, so I can't really comment on that.
  16. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member


    But the "empirical evidence" of which you speak tends, for MMA guys, to consist of how the art does in the MMA ring. They don't count streetfights, and since training for the ring doesn't include weapons, we immediately come to the parting of the ways.

    Sure, it is possible that a BJJ blue belt can take down and choke out a black belt in a tradition martial art. But if you are going to debate, you need to argue the point made -- I didn't say otherwise. I said a MMA told me that any BJJ blue belt could defeat any traditional black belt, and I see no proof of that, nor that the MMA guys are barstool, knife- or bulletproof, which is why I brought it up. It's not strawman if that's the point being addressed -- that being a BJJ blue belt means you can beat anybody who trains in a traditional art wherein weapons are a major factor.

    Thorton made the comment that silat is a silly art, and yet, several of us know of a silat teacher who somehow managed to use his art to give Thornton a lesson back when he was a BJJ bluebelt, so right away, that part of the argument gets made moot.

    Silat is a mixed martial art, albeit an old one, and it has striking, throwing, grappling, groundwork, and it is based on the blade.

    And since you have no knowledge of silat, why are you posting in this group? Nobody said that MMA was a worthless system. We just said it isn't the only thing that works on the street. It's the MMA guys who seem to need to denigrate anything that isn't the way they do it.
  17. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    nope, mma guys respect any art that trains alive. Look at the dog brothers, they train with weapons, however there is a close 2 way relationship between MMA and what the dog brothers do.
  18. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Hey Steve, I can only speak for myself, but I tend to just look at the new posts, and that may get me into some subgroups I might not otherwise read. I wasn't aware that the different subgroups were exclusive. I mean, if expertise is a prerequisite for posting, I'm screwed! :)

    If you guys are having a conversation about something in your Silat group and I can contribute, are you saying that I shouldn't because I don't study Silat?
  19. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Something to Say

    Not at all. But if you are going to speak about something in a group dedicated to that subject, it's probably a good idea to know something about it. Silat is old-style MMA, and there are a lot of different system that vary widely, in intent and application. If you don't know that, then you can't see how much alike or different they might be than what the MMA guys do.

    I never said the MMA folks can't fight, but it does seem that they think they invented the wheel, and the whole "alive" versus "dead" argument is usually put forth by folks who have little or no experience in what it is we do and how we do it.

    Watching a vid or taking a couple classes doesn't give you the art any more than watching a BJJ vid teaches you how to grapple.

    No, you can't learn how to fight by yourself doing forms, nobody I know believes that, you have to spar (or roll) against resisting partners. We do that. But when we are home alone, we have solo practice drills that help us develop and maintain basic movement skills. For the MMA guys to consider these worthless is, of course, their business, but you can understand how we might not agree with them that they are useless. Especially when a lot of our players have used the stuff on the streets to save their asses -- and have been doing that for hundreds of years.

    Some of the silat folks have a sport version. We don't. You don't crank it up seriously unless you butt is on the line.

    As for the Dog Brothers, they came out of FMA and silat, and what they do is pretty much just a harder version of what they learned. Ask them.
  20. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    i know that was the point i was making.

Share This Page