I don't really see how that bears any relationship to the tired fallacies and well worn straw men presented in IO's post.
If your primary goal is to get back to your feet, why would you not want to study something that teaches you how to do this effectively? Untrained Bad intentions do not always translate into success.
The connection ---that is, my original intention--- was to avoid one more turn around that same pointless discussion about how germane learning ground-fighting is to a combat or S-D situation. To people who do it, its important. To people who are not interested, its NOT important. Now....if your intention is to promote a mindless exchange just to get free attention (IE "advertising") for your art, why not pay the advertising fees and do it the right way, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce
You tell me. Where is the intelligent discourse? Here's what I am hearing. The same vapid generalizations that come up about once every 90 days. Its always the same thing. Each side claiming that what THEY do is somehow more ________(whatever)______. And the qualifications? Don't get me going about how many differrent ways something is qualified in order for one individual to make a "prove" his point. The points never get proven. Nor WILL they be proven because, in the end the only thing that will prove effectiveness is in the use of deadly or debilitating force in a situation where such usage is sanctioned. Ain't gonna happen. Now....in my response I have just saved this thread about 20 pages of "yes it is; no it ain't" bickering. Like to bicker? I don't and I really get sick and tired of these same vapid threads popping-up time and again and always going the same way.
But regardless of personal taste you cannot ignore the fact that you need some form of decent ground defense Bruce I remember the old "Pavement Arena" series where grappling was listed as " the last resort". This was before the UFC and the mindset was - and still is - you should never willingly go to the floor in a streetfight. However, the key word is willingly In today's environment encountering someone who has a rudimentary knowledge of grappling is exponentially higher than at any stage in martial arts history. When you do not take into account these factors in your own training (an by extension that if your students) you are no longer preparing yourself physically - you are gambling Now given that most people never actually find themselves in such situations it is a safe gamble, but then we enter the "art for arts sake" territory - do why do ANY self protection if you are playing the numbers game? Even 12 months of decent grappling puts you in a much safer position. As no art is complete in and of itself anyway to me it is a no brainer Admitting that sometimes you need a wrench does not mean you should throw away your hammer Fwiw Bruce is suspect you are along the same lines, although I urge caution about thinking "I would do XYZ to a grappler" when you are not one - all that does is ramp up THEIR game
In all honesty, Hannibal, I agree with you. I think its a matter of degree. Do we spend our time chiding this or that art because it does not have enough Hand Techniques? What happens if I am mugged by a welter-weight? Do we deride an art because it does not have enough sword-work? What happens if we are attacked by an Olympic Fencer? How about a KENDO champion? Hapkido has ground-work but nowhere near what other practices like BJJ have. So? What am I suppose to do; leave Hapkido and master BJJ? OK. So now I have mastered BJJ; now what? The fact is that we all know that there is no one supreme art that will allow for victory at all times and on all occasions. Most of us will never use our MA training, and we will certainly never have a gladitorial game where we can finally prove a position. The Japanese Marines learned judo and there was never a documented case of it being used in WW II. The same holds true for Japanese Kenjutsu and the WW II Katana-s. Its the never-ending circular bickering that I am raising cane about. Best Wishes, Bruce
Bruce, I only came onto this thread due to assertions by other posters that for self defence involving grappling was suicide. If you serious about sd, you need all ranges. If you feel you are in an area with many fights started by olympic fencers then maybe you should look into that too,
OK....point well taken. I would just hate to have the Olympic Fencers popping up every 90 days reminding everyone who will listen that training isn't complete with covering for this eventuality. Thanks again. Best Wishes, Bruce
Of course if the Ultimate Fencing Championships become popular then all the cool kids will be wearin Tshirrs with slogens such as 'get in my en-guard' and 'jesus didnt epee' Have you any experience in ssirum?
Hello all, Hapkido has ground defense, ground finishing, whatever you want to call it...I forgot how ground fighting has become the new standard that all of us need to be concerned with...and I mean NO disrespect, but the VAST majority of these practitioners that tell me how "fighting happens" and how I need to add something to a curriculum that they don't even know, have never trained in Hapkido, and are often younger than my training years in the art I train and teach. Most of the traditional arts that I know of practice some form of ground defense, it may not be up to the sporting standard of people in the ground game world, but we teach people how to fight on the ground, and stand again as fast as possible... But frankly I just don't get it...what percentage of fights go to the ground? Maybe I've just lost count.
From my many years of past experiences and observations, fights do not end up on the ground- Unless someone was knocked down, slipped/fell And by the time anyone went to the ground, so much was going on, that people were able to scramble up and start again or it was ended from others intervention
I think I can count on one hand the number of fights I witnessed while bouncing that went to ground and continued to remain actual fights vs rolling sessions. And, for most of these altercations, the main goal FROM ground was not to try to get an arm bar going, but rather to get to a standing position and move out of range of the oddly thrown kick or grab attempt. I'm not saying that ground techniques aren't valuable, because ALL techniques are valuable. I feel strongly, though, that too great an emphasis has been placed on fighting while lying down. Think about how most altercations begin and where they go. They start standing or seated. From a seated position, people STAND, they dont dive to the floor, lol. From standing, the fight ensues and is usually broken up by the time one combatant has fallen. Rarely does a fight go on and on like in a movie. We learn a fair bit of ground work in HKD (even at MY school), more than enough I think, and if I have to rely on it even one time I'll be shocked.
A) From my Hapkido instructor, I learned how to keep my balance and throw off the balance of others B) Although I have learned this (A) from my Judo instructor as well, but I learned from my Judo instructor on how to escape chokes, full nelsons, body grabs, like those who try to subdue while you standing, which allowed me to off ballance them. (Not that my Hapkido did not have this, I studied Judo first) C) And, these (A & B) were also shown from my Gung Fu instructor, he taught me how to utilize movement without wasted energy, without needed space D) From my boxing coach, he taught me how to stick and move, as well as when I slipped on the canvas to retain foot positions E) From another instructor, whom train with/through many others for decades, he had it in his sparring sessions, if you went to the ground, you better get up because he encouraged the one remaining on their feet, to still attack the pour soul whom happened to get on the ground. F) Speaking of bouncers, I managed a few pubs, and we did not look for bouncers "ready to engage". We wanted those who had the attitude to not engage, but they had to look big enough to intimitate the casual drinker/boorish patron
The subject came up once during a seminar discussion and KJN Myung took time to give us an overview. Later I picked-up a video tape and was able to expand on that information. Absent that I never took it very far. I have become a believer in the origins of grappling being found in the horse-cultures of central Asia, but the Ssireum material seemed little removed from Mongolian Wrestling which allows for kicks and strikes where Ssireum does not. Along those line, M-W and Hapkido would have more in common than Ssireum and Hapkido. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I believe the 'most fights end on the ground'-mantra was well marketed by the BJJ people. And they had the 'proof', because look here was one of their guys being attacked and guess what he did? Right he took the fight to the ground. Don't get me wrong. I do see the value of any MA-ist having a decent understanding of groundwork and urge everyone to look into it and train. A lot! However, just like Bruce, I am getting sick and tired of going over the same argument again and again against people who have had no decent exposure to the art I train and teach.
I actually think the Gracies took the stats from LA Police Dept confrontations....which nearly always end up on the ground because that is where the perp is arrested. So it was not a lie, but not really the truth either
Ive seen footage of mongolian wrestling competitions, no striking in these. Quick source - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling#section_3
Yes....they have had to "clean-up" Mongolian Wresling quite a bit. Mongolian Nationalists would like to see their form of wrestling get the recognition they think it deserves, and maybe even make it into the Olympics. To do that they need to make some modifications like JUDO underwent before it was excepted. JUDO had to take choke-outs from their practices. I'm guessing that M_W will need to re-think stomping on a partners neck while he's on the ground. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I didn't think this would turn into a ground fighting discussion. My intention was to have to OP realize totally ignoring ground defense is plain stupid. Things happen and the motto of Hapkido is if it can happen then there is defense against it. Otherwise there would be no array of techniques that deal with someone grabbing you by lower sleeve, middle sleeve, shoulder, collar, belt etc. Having knowledge/technique that lets you get back to your feet if someone takes you down or from a slip is training for ground fighting. If your planning on entering a BJJ tournament you will need more work than that. I don't think Bruce is ignoring or down playing ground fighting, hapkido will give you the tools to defend yourself on the street if thought and practiced correctly. You don't need to go to a BJJ school if you don't want to just to think you will be able to defend yourself better if Laminaria digitata hits the fan. Just train what you like and keep an open mind that anything can happen in a confrontation and don't ignore the fact that no matter how good you are you can end up in a spot your not comfortable in (ex. bar floor with broken glass).
