martial arts: search for enlightenment or learning to whoop ass!

until you've really felt what someone can do, and most won't show you until you've given them enough time and respect, the apparent awe of Tai Chi will elude you, or any art for that matter. people are more open with their arts now, but i still see that some people get privleges where others get the basics.


beyond this, i have been thinking about this a while. it's nice to come here and see other MAists with similar thinking. i've been feeling almost alone in our community. i keep trying to get our gym involved in our area, feeding the homeless, getting press releases done, demonstrations etc. at every turn though, the reaction from the general public is that we're (all martial artists) are nothing but groups of thugs out to get people. thankfully the homeless don't see it this way, as we are putting meals in front of them and a few warm blankets.

i went and looked at a few popular schools in the Portland Area, and some of the MA events coming up like SportFight and Rumble at the Roseland.

no wonder people think we're a bunch of sadists, all the images from these events are all about agression and anger, as it is right now i wouldn't want to raise a kid to be a mixed martial artists. i remember a guy telling me about his grappling gym and sending me links to his site while i was at work. i get the link, hop on the site only to find out there's an amatur porn section with girls from his gym in "official" gym lingerie and thongs(but toppless) or naked.

what kind of example are we setting when our events are sponsored by coors light and other "sin" products. it'd be like going to the olympics and having a cigarette brand represent you. it just doesn't fit.


then i thought back to the Way of the Warrior again, when a samurai or a monk faces an opponent on the battle field there was a high level of extreme respect, not hate or anger. the samurai's lip didn't curl in furiousity as that would have been a loss of emotional control and a disgrace.

even more recently in the Philipines when the death matches occured the tribe who won would hold great ceremonies for the losing victim because they valued life as a prescious treasure.


i think we've lost sight of that along the way. i always TRY to examine myself and offer what i can to my trainign partners, granted it is very hard to do in the moment of a real fight. Now it seems any time i can go the aikido route and harmonize with my opponent the fight never occurs.


just thinking, peace,
joe

 

Doesn't the enlightenment in the English sense just mean gaining knowledge, though? That's different from what we are talking about here.

Hmm...you make a claim, and then I'm supposed to find the evidence for you? That's not the way it works. Find a 90 year old man who does back flips and then that'll be proof that you're right.

Well that depends on what you mean by ki/chi/qi. Interpretations range from magical energy to proper body alignment and biomechanics (which is the one that makes more sense to me). The way I've seen tai chi applied against a resisting person didn't suggest any magical energy, just the tai chi person pushing the other guy off balance (via push hands/tui shou or takedowns).

 

It's skill, dude. Same phenomenon as sending someone flying 2 metres through the air with a side kick...that looks like magic too.

You're saying that aligning with a supernatural force is seriously going to override someone else's speed, agility and biomechanical skill? Oh, come ON. This is not the Matrix! Sure, imagining you are doing a move when you're actually doing something sedentary can help your kinetic memory but it's very little use. Believing you can kick someone's ass does not work in the real world. Tell you what - I'll try it next time I'm fighting some of the seniors at my dojo (boohoo, why's it always me who fights the black belts???) and see if it works. If I get less of an ass kicking than usual, I'll admit you're right.

If this was not what you meant, I apologise sincerely.

The longer I train in MA the more sure I am that these things are due to pure skill. There are a bunch of techniques for sensing someone's movement, etc...which can kick someone's ass if used well.

 

Nope, nope wrong end of the stick there mate, i say there is, you dont believe me, and tell me i Have to prove it to you, and i say no, research it yourself, like i did...

Here are some simple instructions on how to find out, go to goggle, type is 90 year old martial artists, or famous martial artist and see what comes up, when doing this, this is called researching. i really do have better thing to do with my time, than chase up old study marterial to satisfy you mate

 

Zenn Ryusaki, if you want to make a claim, find the proof yourself. I'm not sure if there is any; why would I waste time looking for something that might not even be there? If there is proof, post it. If not, admit you can't prove it.

Try learning how a debate works. The person who presents the idea gives facts to support. Then, and only then, does the person or group who disagrees presents evidence against it.

 

Then, fyi, you are running counter to how all western law and debate is run. To put it concisely, the burden of proof always lies upon the party bringing the claim. That's the foundation of our legal and academic systems.

- Matt

 

What point is it that you think I'm trying to make, other than the fact that he really should have been able to write that better?

Edit: I reread the message several times and it's still funny. I don't see how the context makes that wording any less nonsensical. I understand his over all point, but those sentences certainly don't make it.

 

I study for inner-peace, fitness, and for the art. If I simply wanted to hurt people, there are much more effective ways than fist and foot. Of course what is enlightenment? Perhaps enlightenment from martial arts is the stage a person gets to after they realize how futile fighting can be. Of course I have no such enlightenment, if confronted and pushed, I'll happily push back (not so much an ego thing as a willingness to accept a challenge), but I don't study so I can stomp people into the ground. That just seems ignorant to me.

-Sting

 

Hello Joe,

I think there may be some romanticism in your portrayal of the ancient battlefield. I'm in Korea right now and I've been looking at some of their history, which is well entwined with Chinese and Japanese. The wars and battles fought in this part of the world were no less fierce, no less brutal, and no less savage than any other. There are records of Samurai cutting down entire Korean provinces, or Manchu warlords putting thousands on pikes to make an example. I doubt either did this without emotion, and I doubt any of their soldiers were above emotion when completing the task.

Although I have great respect for many of the ideals you’re talking about, I tend to think that the ancient warriors suffered the same doubts, fears, excitement and anger that each of us feel. It's just the novelists and poets that make us think otherwise. Just my humble opinion though.

-Sting

 

Ok, if thats the case, -.- though it wasnt a claim, it was a fact

Passed Away: 7/14/2002

Founder of Tang Soo Do.

Blackbelt Magazine's 1989 Man of the Year

Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee was born on November 9, 1914, in Jang Dan, Kyong Ki province where the DMZ is currently located. His father, Hwang, Yong Hwan, had a dream in which he saw the bright star (Sam Tae Song) before his son's birth. He named his son "Tae Nam", which means "star boy". Later his name was changed to "Kee". His father was a scholar who had achieved a high level of academic recognition from the last King of the Yi Dynasty, Ko Jong.

In May 1921, when young Hwang Kee was about seven years old, it was a time of a traditional holiday called "Dan O", which is the national May festival. During that time he happened to visit his neighboring village, where a variety of folk plays and festive activities were held. As he enjoyed seeing a variety of folk plays such as Ssirum (traditional wrestling), archery and roadraces around the village, he happened to see a group of people in a tavern making noise that caused him to believe that some trouble was developing. He saw a group of seven or eight young men arguing with one man, and this argument soon progressed to physical fighting. The group of young men began to attempt to beat the man. The man was avoiding their attacks and countering with various kicks to the group of young men. Soon the group of young men fell one by one as a result of the man's strange moves. After the attack ended, some onlookers said, "That is Tae Kyun", and some said, "That is Sip Pal Ki", as they were departing. The Kwan Jang Nim was so impressed by this man's performance that he decided to find out what his art was about. He followed the man at a distance and discovered where he lived.

Several days later, he approached the man's home and sat on a hill nearby and looked down at his house. He saw the man practicing some hand and foot movements with a partner. He watched their practice closely with great interest and he realized that these were the same techniques that the man had used facing the group of seven or eight young men at the May festival. After that, he often went near the man's home to watch him practice, and he imitated and practiced what he saw from the man's techniques.

One day he decided to learn these techniques and he asked the man to teach him. His request was refused because Hwang Kee was too young. Although disappointed, he would go to the man's home and watch him perform whenever he could and then practice by himself what he had seen. This was the "Tae Kyun" that had been handed down from the later part of the Yi Dynasty. This experience was a major influence leading him to become a Kwan Jang Nim, who would devote his entire life to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.

In the country of Korea some 70 years ago, the educational system differed significantly from the present. Few students became high school graduates. The Kwan Jang Nim entered elementary school at the age of 11 and graduated high school in March 1935. Following his graduation, he went to Manchuria to work for the railroad company (May 1935).

In May 1936 he had the opportunity to meet a Chinese master, Master Yang, Kuk Jin and to visit Master Yang's house with a friend, Park, Hyo Pil, who worked with him at the Jo Yang Station. During this visit, he learned that Master Yang was teaching a handful of private students practicing a Chinese martial art in his home.쟄e never lost his dream of learning the depth of the martial arts following his experience when he was seven years old. He had trained himself whenever the opportunity was offered and from whatever source was available during the past 20 years; however, he never had any organized or structured lessons, nor did he have access to formal instruction or any dependable literature on the subject.

Mr. Hwang Kee was overwhelmed with happiness as if he were dreaming, knowing that he was at the home of Master Yang, who was highly renowned as a martial arts Master. He was served tea by Mrs. Yang. His first impression of Master Yang was of a man with a very gentle and healthy appearance with good energy, who looked to be about 50 years old. Master Yang was taller than Mr. Hwang Kee and kept his body healthy. That same day, Mr. Hwang Kee humbly requested to be Master Yang's student. Master Yang refused his request gently, saying that "I am not good enough to teach you." Mr. Hwang Kee and his friend, Mr. Park, could not speak Chinese well enough to present their sincere wishes to study at that time. That evening they had a good dinner at Master Yang's house, thanked the couple, and returned to their home.

That night Mr. Hwang Kee could not get to sleep because of the excitement that he had experienced being with Master Yang. He considered this to be once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to learn the martial art from the Master, if he were accepted. He was also concerned about what he would do if Master Yang really would not accept him as a student. He tried to get to sleep that night with mixed emotions of happiness and concern.

The next morning, he discussed things with his friend, Mr. Park, and they decided to visit Master Yang again and again until they were accepted. On their third visit, Master Yang finally accepted them as his students. They were so happy to be accepted that they practiced whenever they had the opportunity. Because of their work schedule, they trained every other day. Mr. Hwang Kee never missed practice with Master Yang. He accepted Master Yang's instruction sincerely and his progress was exceptional due to his sincere dedication and prior martial arts experience during the previous 20 years.

Master Yang admired his dedication. Mr. Hwang Kee and four other students were training under Master Yang during this time. The training consisted of Seh Bop (method of postures), Bo Bop (method of steps) and Ryun Bod (method of conditioning) as their basic training. They also had trained in "Dham Toi Sip E Ro" and "Tae Kuk Kwon," which were disciplines of form and its combat applications.

In August of 1937, he had to leave Master Yang and return to Seoul for personal reasons. During 1941, he went back to Manchuria for a short time to visit Master Yang for instruction. This was the last time he was able to enjoy Master Yang's instruction. He could not communicate with or visit his Master again once China became a Communist country in 1946.

Upon his return to Seoul after leaving his instructor Master Yang, in 1937, the Kwan Jang Nim searched for an opportunity to continue his personal martial arts training and, possibly, teach. It was impossible at the time, for him to pursue his wishes in martial arts activity due to the strict Japanese influence on all facets of the Korean culture. (The country of Korea was occupied by the Japanese from 1910 to August 1945). Because of this situation, Gum Do (Ken Do) and Yu Do (Ju Do) were the only two martial arts known to the general public. People did not have any knowledge of Soo Bahk, Okinawan Karate, Chinese Wu Shu, or Kung Fu.

Because of this situation, it was impossible for Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee to make his long-time dream come true. He spent long hours of meditation and self-conditioning during this time.

He started work at the Survey department of the Cho Sun Railway Bureau in 1939. His working area was very peaceful and quiet because it was in a separate building a little distance from the main building. In this facility were located a lecture room, a library, and various exercise rooms.

In his employment, although he earned a low salary, he was very comfortable with the working conditions and especially his work environment. He spent most of his time reading books from the library. He particularly enjoyed reading about astronomy, philosophy, and Okinawan Karate. It was a very pleasant surprise for him to find karate books at the library, even though all the books were from Japan. (No other books were avaliable from any other country at that time and this was the first modern form of martial arts books he had seen).

This was his first encounter with Okinawan Karate and he found that he was able to study the art though books at that time. Later, this knowledge influenced the Moo Duk Kwan system when "Tang Soo Do" was adopted by Grand Master Hwang Kee during the early part of the Moo Duk Kwan history.

Although Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Passai Hyungs, and Kong Sang Kun Hyungs, etc., were practiced a little differently from the original Okinawan Karate (unique use of the application of offensive and defensive hip in all movements, and hip extension and thrust kicking techniques as well as its interpretation), these Hyungs were influenced by the Kwan Jang Nim's study of the books on Okinawan Karate, as indicated in the Soo Bahk Do Deh Kahm (1970).

During that period of time, he had developed his high maturity as a martial artist. Because he worked for the railroad, he was able to travel without cost to anyplace where the train could reach. He traveled to most of the famous mountains and to Manchuria, which added to his experience and maturity in the martial art discipline.

During the same period, there were a number of wars initiated by Japan, which led to World War II. It was a very unstable time.

Finally, Korea became an independent country on August 15, 1945, as World War II came to an end. At the time it became possible for Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee to fulfill his life-long dream to dedicate himself solely to the martial arts.

During the previous 25 years, his maturity as a martial artist had been conditioned through his hard and long self-taught training of Tae Kyun and his various experiences in both formal and informal martial arts training, as well as the significant influence by his master, Master Yang, while he was in China. It was not only Master Yang's technical influence but also his desire to improve human character, which proved an invaluable experience. The study of Okinawan Karate through the available books at the library while he was employed by the Cho Sun Railway Bureau in Seoul form 1939 to 1945 was also a great influence.

With these experiences in martial disciplines, he founded the Moo Duk Kwan and established its philosophy on November 9, 1945.

From "The History of Moo Duk Kwan - Celebrating the 50th Anniversary 1945-1995"

Just something for you to ponder upon my fellow martial artists that make false accusations

 

Zenn,

Hwang Kee's bio, in particular his early years, has generated a lot of controversy amoung Martial Arts Historians. Like most of the history of the modern Korean Arts, it difficult to sort the truth from hyperbole and fiction.

As such these records, being regurgitated oral histories are of little value as far as proof. There have been no recorded witnesses of the "monk" that Hwang Kee trained with. Additionally many of the original Tang Soo Do forms are Japanese in origin (based on the Pinan Katas). Others were based on Yang Style Tai Chi and in part researched by Hwang Kee's son. And others were based on anchient Korean training manuals. See the Journal of the Asian Martial Arts for an indepth look at this:
Vol. 12:4 -- Adrogué, M. "Ancient military manuals and their relation to modern Korean martial arts"

So while this does present anecdotal evidence of your premise, it doesn't provide verifiable fact.

- Matt

 

How about learning to get in shape or socialize? Whooping ass and enlightenment aren't my top priorities.

 

Both perfectly understandable motivating factors, although as has been argued before, both could be achieved more effectively outside of martial arts (though presumably you simply prefer socialising and enhancing fitness through martial arts as opposed to more efficient methods; e.g., getting fit by going to the gym etc).

The thread title suggests a dichotomy, a limit which is not present in martial arts training. However, the main discussion within the thread so far has been on the relationship between the physical and the 'spiritual'/philosophical/religious etc, rather than a debate which accepts that there are only two potential reasons for training martial arts (which would be demonstrably fallacious).

 

Almost. I think what we need to do is separate primary function from reasons one trains.

The primary function of the martial arts is to assist one in triumphing in phsyical conflicts.

The reasons one chooses to train... those can be myriad and non dichotomous.

- Matt

 

I do see what you mean Matt, but there are others out there... as for that, i think that debate is over, though i was reading some other comments upon the whoop **** aspect and i must say, there are some really good points there...

 

Excellent, and such good english too.

 

I definately prefer "triumphing in physical conflicts" to "whupping ass"! And I prefer 'self-defence' to either of them!

If someone wants to pick a fight with me then I'd be more than happy to 'whup their ass', but someone could want to learn a martial art so they can go around picking on people. Hopefully once they have studied for some time they would learn that bullying people is wrong... and maybe then that would be their first step on the road to enlightenment!

Seriously, I'm not sure about 'enlightenment' because I'm not a Buddhist. But I do believe that MA's can help us gain greater self-awareness and greater understanding of other people too.

 

Hobby, I do MA as a hobby, because I enjoy it and I just like fighting to start with. For enlightenment, MA is just a small portion of it, I treat everything I do as something to be store to my central brain, if that makes any sense at all...

 

Hey New Guy - has anyone ever told you that you look just like Bruce Lee?

 

Noooooo, noooooooo, noooooooo!!!!! Martial arts classes are not for socializing! My class used to suffer interruptions every five minutes from people 'socializing', before most of the less serious people gave it up.

Here are my reasons for doing Shotokan:

1. I have a 'walk to the edge' mentality, I want to face obstacles in life, see what I'm made of. In less sentimental terms...I'm an adrenaline junkie!!!

2. Self defence. I used to have a HUGE issue about men being (Putatively!!!) stronger than women. I have since discovered that this notion is mostly just social conditioning, but didn't stop me having an issue at the time. All the stuff you hear about 'Boys are stronger than girls, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah' and 'I can kick your ass' used to really **** me off. Now knowing I could kick the asses of most (lone) attackers I don't give a crap anymore.

That and I am rather unpopular where I live...something to do with the fact that I talk in loads of long words like an intellectual snob, take an interest in obscure subjects like sub-atomic physics, don't drink or smoke, wear black clothes most of the time and do my hair like Trinity from The Matrix...you've got the idea. I have had hassle from people my age for being a 'weirdo'. So, I like to be able to defend myself.

3. I wanted something to work at, strive for, all that sentimental crap. I love to train my ass off until my face glistens with sweat. I think the former is actually something to do with brain chemicals that make people want to exerttheir bodies...whatever the logic behind it it's a great feeling.

I bet no-one I know has realized I'm this deep and sentimental!!!