martial arts: search for enlightenment or learning to whoop ass!

They absolutely do, yeah. And I'm as likely to shout "foul!" at that sort of over-mystified nonsense as you are. But concepts like self reflection and that sort of thing aren't cultural trappings. So to my mind, while the specific verbiage is cultural (and can get seriously overblown in the hands of clowns), the underlying idea isn't.


Stuart

 

Sorry - edited my post while you were still replying to the original version. I'm a bit prone to that.

 

I guess I'm saying that "I want to whoop ass" is an oversimplification. The obvious question is "why?" By and large, it's not a necessity. People don't just train for self defense. They train for ring combat or sparring or fun. So what makes getting hit, hitting people, or simulating hitting people fun or rewarding? What do we get out of it, given that most of us aren't addressing a specific need to actually physically overcome opponents?


Stuart

 

I think James is referring to the non-physical aspects of internal MA training. The traditional chinese philosophy of balance is important here. As Axelb mentioned, anyone who's MA draws it's lineage from Damo should be aware that it began as meditation exercises to achieve balance in yourself. The fighting came later. The area became very broad over time, now encompassing qi gong, accupuncture/pressure, herbal/medical aspects, martial arts, etc. Many practicioners of traditional chinese MAs therefore naturally tap into some of the areas peripheral to their own art (in fact the location of the boundaries between these areas often depends on the individual). This can make them and their art more complete.

The difficulty is that many modern practicioners (since they often aren't exposed to constant threats) get hung up on such things and neglect the fact that somewhere along the way they should probably learn how to fight as well! In general this is a good chunk of the reason why some people don't respect TMA practicioners when it comes to actually fighting - too much comic/book reading, video watching, sticking noses up at boxers/street brawlers/kickboxers even though they might be way better at fighting than you because all you do is analyse moves from videos! TMA won't give you magic powers - there are perfectly reasonable explanations as to why 60/70/80/90/etc. year old practicioners can kick you from here to Sunday, so don't look for the supernatural where it doesn't exist. Keep internal and external in balance as much as you can.

To come back to the thread, the aim of your martial arts training is for you to decide -there are those that want enlightenment, and practice some MA as part of that. In this case your goal is enlightenment and being able to defend yourself is a side-effect, but typically the aim would be to become a good fighter (martial art) and other benefits are mostly to help with being a good fighter.

 

Hmmm. My post took a long time to write and the thread seems to have left me behind. Ah well.

 

Don't worry, mate - good post, and still relevant.

I presume you're simply using that as a catch-all term, but surely the very existence of Damo/Bohidharma etc, not to mention his impact on MA, is still a matter of some debate?

I agree. However, I feel that this is something the individual brings with them, rather than draws out of MA, and would be able to bring to other activities, such as those I mentioned earlier.

Of course, all JMO.

 

I'd have to check it but I have an idea in the back of my head that there is written evidence to support it - also, no smoke without fire (metaphorically - in reality I have frequently seen smoke without fire ).

Yes I think so too, however TMAs were developed in situations where those taught would already most likely have had exposure to other T chinese aspects. Personally I find some 'peripheral' training of benefit.

 

"I think James is referring to the non-physical aspects of internal MA training."
not just that, the physical also.

"The traditional chinese philosophy of balance is important here."
I totally agree.

"sticking noses up at boxers/street brawlers/kickboxers"
I dont, never have, never will. I started my MA training in a combat self defence system. Respect all pugilists!

"TMA won't give you magic powers - there are perfectly reasonable explanations as to why 60/70/80/90/etc. year old practicioners can kick you from here to Sunday, so don't look for the supernatural where it doesn't exist."
Whos talking about supernatural, I'm talking about the development of skills that one can continue to use into old age when a lot of external training may no longer be viable.

I started this thread because there seemed to be a division in peoples thinking along these lines, personally I believe theres no real division. No matter what you do, MA, sculpt, plumber, teacher whatever, if you're doing it to make yourself a better person, if you're doing it to be the best [whatever] you can be, then you're on the path to enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. However if u just do what u do, no real reason, no real goals etc, then you're just wasting time till u snuff it. and in terms of MA, i think that kinda of approach would be tragic.
A lot of the people who have said WHOOP ASS! as their answer have said elsewhere that they want to be the best fighter they can be, or other such statements, so to me they are on a path to enlightenment.
j

 

Sorry I must have misunderstood your post;

I thought you meant if you got to a point where physical exertions were beyond you.

I wasn't referring to you at all . I don't suspect you of being a couch kung fu master either! Just went on a little rant that's all.

Again, not talking about you - but just as some people go over the top on heavy physical/external training, some dreamers think that 'softer' training will give them majic powers when they're older. As I say it's just a general rant, not directed at anyone in particular.

 

When i was talking about old people, i wasnt talking about supernatural events, i was stating a fact that there are people out there that are that age, that can still do martial arts and not end up in a wheelchair due to old age... The problem with some people is they give up because they dont think they can do it anymore, but there are those who don't give up until the very end...

 

Just a couple historical notes:

The Okinawan arts developed from the mixing of Chinese fightings systems, in particular Fukanise Crane and Five Ancestors, with idiginous fighting systems (trust me, everyone had them). The entire thing about Okinawans having their weapons taken is a myth that dates back to the mistranslation of some historic texts.

Martial Arts in China predate Damo's visit by centuries. Further, exploring historical documents, it's been found that Damo was not integrated into the story of Shaolin until a few centuries after his visit. Basically, any attempt to draw a corrolation between Damo and the development of the chinese arts s on shakey ground.

As far as the subject of discussion, Slideyfoot has already atriculately represented my view. The function of the arts is to learn to defend oneself in a specific manner/scenario. It's a function of the act of diligent study that leads on to self discovery.

- Matt

 

I hope you're not referring to the shaolin monks...the shaolin temple is not the source of all Chinese martial arts.

That may just be a myth. I've heard that from a lot of sources- unreliable ones. I've also heard that Boddidharma/Damo is a myth (which makes sense- I haven't seen any solid historical evidence suggesting that he existed, or that he went to China and taught the monks) and the "Shaolin" martial arts were actually developed by bandits etc that were hiding out at the Shaolin temple.

I do, but I don't think many here know that name.

Great post btw, Slidey.

This whole forum would be a lot more productive if people used evidence more often instead of unproven myths and second-hand stories of invincible masters...

Philosophy is very subjective, I don't see how learning it exactly like your 'master' wants you to is a good idea. I like to think for my self, so I leave the thinking up to myself. I go to MA to learn martial arts. I read and discuss philosphy to learn about philosophy.

Martial arts are designed for fighting. Why the person trains is up to them. In slidey's case, he enjoys acrobatic kicks etc. Kicks are for fighting. He doesn't train to fight, he trains for fun. However, what he enjoys is still about fighting.

Exactly. I could learn the techniques of karate and be able to use them without wearing gi's, wearing belts, calling someone "sensei" etc. Those aren't part of my culture. Karate correctly applied to my culture would still have the same techniques, but I would be wearing what people normally wear when they go to the gym (sweat pants, shorts, t-shirts, tank tops, or whatever) and I would call the teacher either Mr./Ms./Mrs. ______ or just by their first name.

*cough* Proof? As Matt said, that's still up for debate.

You didn't back up that comment very well in the other thread, you shouldn't bring it up here.

 

Quote of the day (note, I didn't snip anything between those two statements, that's exactly the way they appear in the message)

 

AZeitung, try reading the entire post.

What I was saying is that this isn't a benefit of martial arts (or "enlightenment")- it's a benefit of facing your fears.

 

azetieung, if you used that in any kind of official debate you would get yourself a new one ripped. CONTEXT is your friend- dont cut bits out of what people say to try and make a point.

 

Define enlightenment, please.

I do it for teh ass-kickingness side of it. I just like doing it. =/

PL

 

2 cents...

What is it about the 90-year old MA-masters that makes them so powerful?

Recently i have discovered what actual 'Ki' is.
Story Time!
A long time ago, when i was but a wee lil' lad, whenever i would go up against my Sensai in a Sparring session, even as i got up and took my position before the match i could feel myself sweat. I looked at him, i used everything i learned and began with a forward stance just as he had taught me.

But it almost seemed the very aura around him radiated with power. He was attacking me with his Ki, and he distorted my Ki energy very well - he didn't even start the match, but pointed out that my Stance had weakened in the slight bending of my knees, my ankles, and the retraction of my wrists.

When he finally started the match, he had his arm down to block my first attack [right skipping side kick] almost before i had even initiated it. He countered it, but swung at me gently and slowly; yet i could not even block the simplest of attacks without losing balance or faltering.

My mind was so offset, so desperate and angry and trying to go fast and powerful and hard, yet the harder i tried to make my stance, the more weaknesses he pointed out, and the faster / harder i tried to strike at him, the easier it was for him to predict and block my attacks.
End of Story Time
Would you want this type of power to be in the hands of someone that's reckless? Who's mind doesn't care for other's well-being at times, and could assault your brothers or sisters, or even children, your loved ones out on the street?

Yes we hone our bodies into weapons as best we can, but it's for what the weapon is swung that matters, not so much of whether the weapon is stronger than the next

Show me someone that wants to simply whoop-ass, and i'll show you someone who lets their hormones and strength take over their own mind and common sense - they become the Beast, not the Artist

 

Oops - sorry, wrong name. You use so many I got them mixed up (it was a thread called 'Is MA only for fighting?', in case people were wondering).

And thank you for the compliment.

 

Well it's good that has been sorted out beyond any doubt whatsoever then. All these facts... all based on such solid evidence! It's true that the tales of Damo and Shaolin Kung Fu are, and have been for a while, under scrutiny with several researchers (Tang Fan Sheng, Matsuda Takatomo, etc.) pointing to inconsistencies in the texts and their own conceptual reasoning to disprove the tales. Food for thought? Yes. Undeniable proof that;

? No. The gospels contain many inconsistencies about the life of Jesus - it's in the nature of reading sources that old - yet most look to him still as the source of Christianity etc. My point is that the relationship between Damo and CMA may be on shakey ground, but in my opinion so is the argument against that relationship.

 

Thats a whole different kettle of factually dubious fish, plus you have the added problem of religion raising people's resistance to rational debate. Unless there are also Shaolin purists who view the Damo stories etc as akin to scripture and therefore take the same closed approach to any critical doubt?