martial arts: search for enlightenment or learning to whoop ass!

well said matey.

 

I'd say that the two things overlap quite alot.

Like the saying goes:
"knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is enlightenment"
I personally feel that a big part of knowing yourself is knowing the part of you that wants to fight and kick ass. Martial arts can teach you how to fight, and from that you can know yourself a little better. To quote the indefatigable fight club:
"how much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?"
'philosophy' and 'enlightenment' may not be inherent in MA but I think that a perceptive person can derive these things from MA.

 

I agree, but I also think that such a person could derive these things from many other activities, such as climbing a mountain, training for a marathon, doing a skydive etc - it isn't the MA, its the person. Interestingly enough, this could be an instance in which the old 'its the individual, not the art' (modified to 'its the individual, not the activity') actually applies.

 

Martial arts only put it into words, it is the persons understanding of knowledge that brings them enlightenment...

It is knowledge that makes people wise, and their experiences, and through observing there experiences combined with their knowledge, a person comes to the fuller understanding...

 

If you only do MA for fighting, if all you want is to be able to do is whoop ass, what happens if someday you can no longer do that. An accident, bad injury or just getting older, what are you left with? is that it then, its all over. I'd hate to be on that kind of path. j

 

Sadly James everyone here will get there, but i aint going to be like my grandad, i aint going to sit down and waste the last of my years because of age, i am going to be like my granmother, she is 86 and she is doing things such as fixing cars, chopping up large piece of wood for her open fire, fixing electric cables in the house, she is going and she said to me she aint going to stop til she truely stops, and i want to go the same way...

Surely you heard of japanese men ages 90 and still being able to backflip and all that, you dont have to stop training and doing martial arts til the end mate, and these 90 year old men still doing this all happens to be really wise because of the knowledge and experiences they have gained over the years... to be honest i condor to them, they are truely respectable figures on why you shouldnt give up

 

knowledge that I can pass on.

 

Same is true for any physical activity - football, basketball, tennis, even gardening. If you don't keep in shape, or you are unfortunate enough to have a serious accident/injury, you may have to tone down or completely stop physical activities you previously took part in. If its simply age, there are precautions you can take to make sure that you are still physically capable in later years - yoga, for example, or more simply, keeping active, like going for regular walks, the gym, cycling instead of taking the car etc.

Like I said, you don't need to do MA to indulge an interest in philosophy, religion or spiritualism; most people interested in those topics don't take MA, they simply read books, take courses etc (I'm making a presumption).

 

How about seeking enlightenment while learning how to whoop ass? Or becoming a super ass-whooper while being enlightened?

 

you don't need to do MA for a philosophical fix, but just studying phil. won't teach you how to defend yourself.

I think a lot of folks do MA because it has sport/fitness/self-defence/philosophy. There aren't many things that have them all.

In fact I think MA is fairly unique in this regard.

 

This may be loosely related, or it may be totally innappropriate :

Starting with the premise that the "jutsu" forms of martial arts concentrate on mastering fighting technique and application to achieve a proficiency, and the "do" forms of martial arts concentrate on the techniques to help fulfill some sort of personal/spiritual enrichment(This is how I understand them, but maybe I really am confused), Would it be fair to say that many non-traditional/modern/mixed MA fall under the jutsu category, while the Chinese,Japanese,Okinawan arts are referred to as "do" arts??

Was That a run-on sentence??

Forgive me if this is inappropraite here, or simply doesn't make sense. I'm just trying to figure some things out.

C

 

Actually, I think that definitely points in the right direction.

The question, in my opinion, is why we feel the need to learn about "whooping ass" in the first place. I mean, yeah, fights happen. But if you were going to play the numbers, does it really make sense to invest years and years of your life in preparing for something that may very well never happen? (For example, I've been practicing for 20 years. And I've never been in a fight in my life.)

I think part of the appeal of learning to whoop ass is that we learn something about ourselves in the process. In that case, it's not about a purely utilitarian need to overcome an opponent. It's because conflict is a part of our nature. And we're exploring that. It feels good to face an opponent. It feels good to get pummeled and keep coming back for more. It feels good to overcome adversity. And those are all esoteric, arguably spiritual, concerns. Not practical ones. Practically, very few of us ever actually need to whoop ass.

It's become very trendy to say "if you want enlightenment, go to church or read a book or whatever." But I think that's overlooking what's right in front of you. We don't usually fight out of necessity. We fight out of desire. And that means something.


Stuart

 

*claps*

Couldn't agree more.

 

Cheers man.

 

What you are talking about is self-defence, something that has never interested me in the slightest. I take martial arts because I find it extremely enjoyable to leap around a large open space trying to throw my body about in various kicking motions. This has nothing to do with preparing for an actual fight, and everything to do with enjoying myself as part of an entertaining sport.

It is the same as if you spent 20 years playing football, or 20 years improving your garden. You wouldn't be doing either of those for enlightenment; you'd be doing them simply because you find that particular activity enjoyable.

I disagree - I think its the opposite. Its become very trendy to spout pseudo-mystical babble in reference to MA, and treat them as a vehicle for spirituality which I find completely false for the reasons discussed earlier, the most important one being the lack of cultural context (unless you go train in Japan/China, whilst immersing yourself in - and fully understanding - that culture. Not easy) and the frequent misinterpretation and exploitation of spiritual/religious/cultural elements.

 

Then it's also not about whooping ass.

Nope. That's been trendy for years now. What I was referring to is a more recent backswing against that idea.


Stuart

 

I agree, in my case at least. However, we could also launch into a whole argument (which must have occured before) that martial arts are for combat, and anything that is not - i.e., anything that isn't 'martial' - cannot call itself a martial art. A better term would be something like 'martially derived art', which is one I'd be happy with. I like combat techniques, but I don't like conflict or actually hurting people; combat gymnastics a la wushu is basically what I'm looking for.

So, you're complaining that the false trendy concept is now being reacted against due to its very fradulence?

 

We could. But then some enterprising soul would point out that "martial art" actually has two words in it. And that the second word has many interpretations that involve subjectivity, personal expression, and abstraction.

Nope. I'm suggesting (thank you very much) that the counterswing isn't particularly more useful than the original exaggeration was.


Stuart

 

I'm not into mystifying oriental culture. There is nothing that makes it that hard for westerners to understand cultures of far east.

It is just naive to believe that there are some mysterious "rules" about what a person can do just because he or she is born to this or that culture.One can be zen buddhist in west just as easily as one can be a christian in the east. I hope you some day may realize that not everyone is like you.

 

Of course they can. However, my point is not that you can't take up Eastern religions - you can. I am talking about taking a martial art out of its cultural context, then trying to apply the cultural values of a society to one which is completely different. In the process, these values tend to be mystified in exactly the way in which you said you're not into.

No doubt there are some instructors very well versed in the cultures that the arts they teach originate from - they aren't the people I'm complaining about.

Hmm. Well, we clearly aren't going to agree on this one, so I'll try and finish my point by saying that if it was originally an exaggeration, then I feel this 'counterswing' is an effort to redress that balance and remove the exaggeration. Are you simply saying that it is now an underestimation? As I don't believe that to be true - the exaggerration is still very much alive and kicking, so the 'counterswing' has purpose.