I do not believe this. I believe there are tens of thousands of applications of principles, but there are but a few principles. Koichi Tohei boiled aikido down to 4 principles, did he not?
Koichi Tohie compiled 4 principles of Ki and 5 principles of Aikido. It's worth mentioning however these are basics. The foundations and not the whole storey.
What are they? The four principles I learned are: relax completely weight underside extend ki keep your one point
Okay aikiMac, I think though your posts I have figured out where we disagree and I believe it is more of a misunderstanding than disagreement. First of all let's separate the person from martial arts. I think I can explain things better this way and then you can post back any questions or comments for me to think about. BTW thanks for the replies to my posts, much appreciated. In Tai Chi one is told to seek your own comfort. In BJJ one is told to take care of what bothers you the most first. These are "strategies" in the martial art systems. The application of this logic is simple and related to martial arts. For instance, if I'm getting choked, I must first address the choke (so I do not get choked out) before I do other things such as try to put the person in an armbar. This is relative to comfort and threat. If the choke is not a good one, I may choose to ignore it and apply a counter technique myself, however if the choke is actually choking me out, I only have a few seconds to deal with it before I am brought unconscious. Now to apply this to a person, a wise person understands limitations and accepts these things so that they can move on. In the martial sense, if I am getting choked out, in any practical sense I have a very short time to deal with it. I MUST deal with it. If you are to understand and agree with what I'm saying, you have to realize that the very nature of protecting yourself when you have to do it is an act of selfishness. I will act as I will to protect myself with LESS regard to the enemy that is choking me out. In martial arts, a PERSON must learn to take things in a selfish manner when necessary, not "wait for the punch to get to you" before acting. To put it another way... You can "turn the other cheek" if you choose to and that is a noble thing to do. You can turn the cheek again and again as many times as you can, and maybe the enemy will stop and show more respect for you, have compassion. This is the ideal situation as no life is taken and I respect that. On the other hand, if you ever decide you must not turn the other cheek but instead you must fight back, this is a martial situation, the use of force. In this manner, the act is selfish in your actions. You may not see it as selfish because it seems the reasonable thing to do. I say it is still selfish, but it might be the right thing to do.
Hi Rebel Wado, Yeah I understand completely where you are coming from. Approaching martial arts from a principle view point is not everyones cup of tea. I have met a load of good martial artists who never grasped the concept of principles at all. Some people just fall into the right places without ever understanding why they should be there. I have absolutely no problem with this at all. If you feel this is the correct route for you, then keep at it. However, some of us come at things from a different perspective. I like to deconstruct a technique to the principles. The benefit I gain from this doesn't just improve the technique it improves my ability to improvise when my techniques go wrong. Understanding the principles is where you can develop beyond an individual style. I guess I am trying to say if you rely soley on technique you are building a prison for your body and mind. The Bear. Edit, After re-reading some of your earlier posts. I think I may have a piece of advice you may find useful (or not). Your analysis of problems relies very heavily on analogy. While this is useful when trying to explain a problem to someone who is not using the same frame of reference as you, as an analytical tool it is almost useless. It is also why people keep misunderstanding your posts because they keep bringing their frame of reference to the analogy. Just say whats in your head, don't try to repackage it. Your points are good.
Good advice Polar Bear. Maybe I should just let everyone look at their own analogies. Okay, here is one of a self-analysis. 1) The very first time you started martial arts, how many principles did you fully understand? 2) At some point you were probably told about principles and some were explained to you. At that point how many principles did you fully understand and could apply them in technique? 3) At some point the understanding of principles was used to improve your technique (application). Is this true? In my list of three points above, only #3 is the practical use of principles, IMHO, because it is hands on (not just theory). I think some are interpreting my statements as the learning of the theory of principles. I can teach theory of principles, others can teach it as well and better than I can. But I'm not talking about intellectual use of principles. When I say I cannot teach principles, I mean that they have to be learned hands on by the student (by everyone). I CANNOT control what a student learns or what they don't learn, that is up to them. That is all I'm talking about in a nutshell. You have to learn principles hands on.
And as principles they aren't exactly helpful without a user guide. relax completely : well I would be lying on the floor if I did that. weight underside : underside of what? extend ki : meaningless unless you understand ki. Keep your one point : Again meaningless without a frame of reference. I don't think these qualify as principles because they rely on too many other concepts. "Do not get hit" is a principle. "Move offline from the direction of attack" is a principle. "Attack in the direction your opponent is off balance." is a principle. The Bear.
In generic terms here are the principles which I place a great deal of emphasis upon. Kime Seme ma-ai go no sen / sen no sen / sensen no sen musubi (in terms of connection) asa gaoa (any daito ryu exponants care to elaborate on this aiki principle ) fudoshin awase (through taisabaki of some form) kokyu kuzushi (leading to waza of some form) zanshin additional principles drawn from iai which still work very well in aikido enzan no metsuke te no uchi (in terms of being in correct contact with one's opponent) Feel free to discuss. Regards
You are right in one sense. You cannot teach a martial art. All you can do is demonstrate the martial art in a clear manner and hope the students can learn from your example. However, the learning process is in two parts. Teaching the body to move in the correct way and teaching the mind why it is correct to do this. You are right you need to express principles to be of any value but that doesn't mean someone explaining principles is not of value. It allows the less experienced mind gain a potential short cut. That is the basis of training with experienced "instructors" or we would all be just as well training ourselves. The Bear.
Kime - focus upon your opponent seme - pressure which creates relationship ma-ai - combative distancing These three terms refer to the different kinds of timing used in dealing with an attacker in budo training. go no sen - defensive response to an attack sen no sen - before the attack sensen no sen - initiating a movement intended to draw the attacker's intent musubi - this term can have spiritual/religious connotations but I refer to its meaning of being in contact with an person without undue effort or strength asa gaoa - this is an aiki principle taken directly from Dai-to Ryu and refers to the rotational movements of the forearms whilst extending one's fingers outwards, it has the effect of creating dynamic tension in the lower arms without restricting movement. Asa gaoa means "morning glory" (lol) and is a name of a Japanese flower which opens in a rotational manner and, a ****-pot (i kid you not) The rotational movement of the forearms is an incredibly powerful movement and if one looks closely at almost all aiki waza, one will find it in one form or another. fudoshin - the mental state of no mind awase - to blend with (often referred to as harmonising) kokyu - the principle of power gained from breathing kuzushi - to off balance your opponent zanshin - the state of total awareness following execution of waza additional principles drawn from iai which still work very well in aikido enzan no metsuke - one's gaze which is not fixed at a particular point in space (gazing at a far mountain) te no uchi - referring specifically to the correct grip of the Japanese sword however, it easily translates to the connection between one person or another. If the "connection" is too strong, your opponent will resist, to weak and you will loose connection.
Yes, why I need more zanshin in my posts. I teach people to learn principles in the academic sense (theory and knowledge), I also hope to inspire people to read more about it on their own. This is of great value and I am sorry if I sounded like it was not valuable. I did not mean it that way. The part I cannot teach about principles is the vocational (hands on) part. I can only lead by example and give advice, the student must learn this for themselves. In the vocational sense, principles become the basis of strategies and the hands on experience becomes the basis of application. So I will say that I teach strategies and tools which give the students hands on experience in learning principles. With this learning, I try to provide the theory behind what they are doing and give them the principles as a guideline of what they should be striving for.
At first I would disagree in that I believe that everyone is both a teacher and a student. On the other hand, everyone is a student so long as they are willing to learn. I think the statement is to say that one SHOULD always be like a student and be willing and trying to learn.
How many real masters of aikido are there ? As far as I'm concerned.. Only one. The founder. Everyone else is just learning (no matter how experienced)
Principle: "Best Block No Be There" - Mr. Miyagi, The Karate Kid movie. This is a good principle to introduce to people that like to block punches with their face. In application this principle has nothing to do with actually blocking but has to do with being a hard to hit target. This would lead to such things as triangular footwork and getting off the line of attack.
That's the nature of principles. F=ma isn't exactly helpful without a user guide either but someone made a big deal about it earlier in the thread. Or, maybe the 2nd is put one application of the first: you move offline so as to not get hit. The boxer bobs and weaves so as to not get hit. The aikidoka moves offline so as to not get hit. One idea, but it's effectuated in two different ways.
