Hi Rebel O Sensei said of this stage of the art that he was just a beginner. THere is one word coined that may describe this stage TAKEMUSU meaning a natural "outporing" of technique with no thought or planning. He did write "My enemies approach brandishing their spears but allready I am behind them!" Sound familiar? Regards Koyo
Was Ueshiba being metaphorical when saying this, in the same way for instance, "Aiki is a manifestation of love" or "there are no winners or losers in aikido" etc.
My enemies approach brandishing their spears but already I am behind them, Sounds like SenSen no Sen Irrimi Nage to me.The other sayings you mention sound like a resolution of violence without overt injury to the attacker (since we are looking at the martial art of aikido in these posts) As to the deeper meaning of O Sensei's words . I believe that we must find our own philosophy based on our own life experience. Like all great leaders I feel that he is an excellent example but we must find our own way. Regards Koyo Edit I think that if we are going to address the philosophy that it would need another thread of it's own.
This reminds me of an exercise we used to do with the juniors. We'd get all the kids to sit in a circle and then pick one who would have to walk around with their eyes closed. Then one of the adults would stand in their path as they walked to see if they would 'sense' the impending danger and stop or change direction or just bump into us. Undoubtedly some cheated. They were kids after all. But others made a genuine attempt at the exercise and they did fairly well. When we asked them why they didn't bump into us they'd generally describe feeling a change in the air. It should also be noted these kids would either stop dead or change direction well in advance of being close enough to see any shadows or use other similar cues.
Not for me Bill, thanks. I'm not that philosophical anyway, I happen to agree with you on your point of finding one's own way on this journey, that's about as philosophical as I get to be honest. I posed my question merely to gain your thoughts on his words. Ta as always for that.. As for Takemusu aiki, although generally our Iwama bretheren seem to coin that phrase and associate it as their own, I often refer to the concept during class and encourage students to be spontainious as possible within the confines of a teaching enviroinment.
Hi Dave I asked quite a few of the original shihan about O Sensei's philosophy and the most common responce was that they could not understand what he was saying because they were so exhuasted by the training. I was once warned against quoting O Sensei bcause "I was a Scot trying to understand a Japanese" My "understanding" would be my interpretation and whoever was listening would put his interpretation on my words....you can see where I am going with this. That is why I tend not to speak of the philosophical side too much and because I have seen it distorted to suit the needs of some "masters". Regards Koyo
Ok Bill. My last post on this subject because I don't want to de-rail the thread from the martial discussion. Do you feel that many people who study aikido, place too much emphasis on the 'philosophy of the founder' considering it to be crucial to understanding the physical art ? And would you say in your opinion this has a detrimental effect on the martial aspects ? I too have read that Japanese instructors themselves stated that understanding the founder's religious, ideological and philosophical belief’s was almost impossible. As someone who doesn't intrinsically follow others by 'default'; I find it difficult to accept the philosophical aspirations or beliefs of a person (or family) I've neither met or, lived in a time when those beliefs were formulated. I've stated this before several times here, I don't see aikido as a martial discipline being any different to any other established Japanese Budo in terms of philosophy, they all have them in one form or another, the underpinning principles of which; all pretty much aspire to the same goals yet; we (the aikido community by and large) seem to focus a very large portion of this aspect to aikido despite the fact that I've yet to find an equal number of Japanese instructors teaching aikido philosophy. I've always found that hard to comprehend. Now.. to anyone looking in on my comments, please don't be offended. I have absolutely no problems with students/instructors placing emphasis on the founder's philosophy, I only have a problem understanding why.
Hi Dave My take on it is that many students brought their own philosophy to aikido.They had a peace and love expectation (remember it was the sixties!!) I tend to try to boil things down to the bone so..AIKIDO IS A PACIFIST MARTIAL ART.?. the two concepts are mutually exclusive. AIKIDO IS A COMPASIONATE MARTIAL ART I can live with that.Your philosophy is dictated by your life experience. Until you have experience then your philosophy has no grounding. MY LAST WORDS ON THIS Peace and love (and a katana) Koyo
Dave, I am with you on this one. IMHO you can practice Aikido to a high level without touching on the philosophy of the founder. Aikido is a very personal thing we all approach our practice in various ways, life experiences and religious beliefs play a part in how people approach Aikido. For me as a westerner the physical side of Aikido is enough for my limited brain to cope with. I know that I have stated this time and time again I beieve that the only way to become good at Aikido is on the tatami with a good instructor and practice, practice, practice. I have trained with a few Japanese instructors at both Dojo/Club level and seminar level and to be honest I have only encountered physical practice Like most serious Aikidoka I have read the philosophy of the founder as the world that I live in is totally different in culture and time I find them hard to relate too. As stated earlier in this post Aikido is a personal thing if people enjoy and get something out of the philosophy of the founder who am I to knock them.
Hello Dave this is going to move away from the martial aspect, however i wanted to asnwer you question. I was brought up in a religion i later turned my back on. Since then i have looked at various religions/philosophies and took from each a portion that i have felt fits me. One particular aspect from aikido is in my signature. There is alot however that have no bearing and relevance on me, some of this i believe to be because i am a westerner looking at eastern philosophy. This may come back to your statement in an earlier post about each of us having a different journey to travel. mark
Hi Macker re your signature AGATSU speaks of SELF VICTORY the fIrst stage of true aikido training wherein all of our own personal weeknesses are addressed and then overcome. Through hard martial training. MASAKATSU speaks of CORRECT VICTORY using the principles gained after having achieved self victory to restore harmony where there is conflict. KATSUHAYABI speaks of IMMEDIATE VICTORY the art cutting directly through the intent of an enemy often stopping the conflict before it can start. Although many choose to see these concepts in a philosophical manner they speak directly to the manner of training and the execution of techniques. Which leads me to agree with Dave and Shinkei Simply training , training and more training on the mat and (if you wish) the philosophy will reveal itself to you. Regards Koyo Edit post 259 addresses this same concept
Thanks Bill My questions a couple of posts back were 'loaded' in that although having metaphorical or philosophical undertones, my own feelings are that philosophy is developed by and large through training and, ethically, whilst we may adopt the general principle behind the founder's ideological desires for aikido as an art, we should as individuals, formulate our own opinions based upon our own experiences (some of which will of course be collective because aikido as a physical budo brings likeminded people together) Thanks for this slight side track, although it is obviously connected
Hi Guys BALANCE no problem you keep yours you break his job done!! However I had a great lesson on balance from Sekiya shihan 6th dan aikido.katori shinto ryu and kashima shinto ryu and a perfect gentleman. I had the privilage of playing host to him and his delightful wife for a period of about two months. One night as he sat with his glass of good Scottish whiskey and his pipe I put on some videos of some of the aikido shihan. He asked me what I thought of them and I replied that Saito shihan looked powerful, Noro shihan looked gracefull etc and Chiba shihan looked martial. He surprised me by stating that if anything "jumped out" at me it was an imbalance be it power, grace ,martial any imbalance as he saw it. I was a bit cofused because I thought that Chiba shihan was the perfect aikido example but he must according to Sekiya shihan have an imbalance because I and everyone else I spoke to definitly saw him as martial. THEN THE LESSON That is because you are looking in an unbalanced manner all you see is the martial aspect look again and see if you can see power or grace in his art. Sure enough it was all there. I think that our own character and manner of training color our impression of other arts and not always in a productive manner. For example a "hard" aikidoka may have little time for a "soft" aikidoka because he himself "sees" ONLY the flexible approach while a "soft" aikidoka may "see" only the hard physical side of the other. Maybe we all have a lot more to learn about BALANCE? Your thoughts?? Respectfully Koyo
My thoughts ? Three words spring to mind after reading your post Profound, Thought provoking. I think I've just had a valuable lesson in humility, and I'm grateful for it. Always a pleasure reading your posts Sensei
I think balance is exactly what the philisophical element is meant to bring to Aikido. The philosophy reminds us we are dealing with people and not x-rays when applying technique.
DEar David. Soldier serving his country then policeman serving the public now aikido teacher teaching people. You do not need a lesson in humility from anyone. Respectfully Koyo
Hi Bill, For once, I'm actually a bit lost for words; I'm still thinking about what you wrote earlier
makotokai Aikido Clips Just posted some clips of Sensei Coyle (koyo) at edinburgh IKet 2005/2006, will be useful for anyone studying sword kata or the aplication of sword principles to hand techniques. As indeed the 'martial art of Aikido'. 2005 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIO6BX_b53k"]Makotokai Aikido Riai Iket 2005 - YouTube[/ame] 2006 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cfvf8aNJyk"]Makotokai Aikido Riai IKET 2006 - YouTube[/ame] Cheers Gerry :bang:
