Live Blade in Self Defense?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by monkeywrench, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Dont go just yet I want to tell you why your talking out of your **** with regards to those self defence techniques :hat:
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    From someone who dribbles at the sight of a new knife...

    I can accept the fact that in the vid you used what you had with you. If that is a one off then no biggie. I can also accept (up to a point) drilling "live" for adrenal exposure (I have done the "U" drill against a live blade, but would never let my students...yet!

    But regulalrly training with a live blade is uncessearily risky. In this demo you gain nothing from a live blade being present but increased risk

    Just my opinion...and worth what you paid for it!
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    And so they should. Have you ever done any knife training yourself?

    In the Phillipines you have Eskrima Masters, but no-one is called a master of the knife, why, because even a complete dick can stick a knife in you. If someone was to be given the term knife master by their instructor, well that instructor may well have just signed a death warrent.

    Sensei Koyo was very critical of nearly all knife videos shown on MAP, Burton Richarson and mine included. He said that the knife has to be respected and ALL training with it should be real.

    It is not the same as all out sparring, not by any means.
     
  4. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    There is no reason to use a live blade in a slow demo.

    Do you slice with the knife while someone else handles the potatoes?
    No.
    When you cut potatoes you risk only yourself. When you work live blades with others you risk putting *them* in harm's way and yourself as well.

    Having said that, I've sliced many things in the kitchen and never cut myself like that.
    ur doin it rong.
    : P

    And I have a knife just like SifuJason does. So no, I have no problem with knives per se.

    I see. Thank you for that reply.

    So explain one thing for me because I truly don't understand. Why does anyone need to train with a live blade at all?
    Also could you describe the live blade training? Or post a video if there is one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My view is that training with a live blade means you are compromising something.
    Either you are scripting things, or not using real energy or motion.
    If it's scripted or lacking energy it's not going to prepare you to face a live blade therefore it's almost useless.

    Let's imagine drilling some boxing hands. We pad up and go for it. Even the best fighter in the world will take a hit or two. That's why we pad up. Now imagine doing that with a knife in each hand. It'd be carnage because those one or two hits would be one or two stabs.
    Again if you aren't training your knife defense with the same level of energy you'd practice boxing it isn't teaching you anything much.

    And an anecdote....when I lived in Nottingham my house mate did Aikido. One of the black belts at his club got stabbed in the leg doing live blade defence. Luckily he got stabbed in the meat of his thigh but it could easily have been his inner thigh and he could have died. Damilola Taylor died from a stab to the inner thigh if memory serves.

    I'll NEVER train live blade as long as I do martial arts.
     
  6. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    I saw two consenting adults in that video, not a man imposing risk on someone else against her will.

    First time I've cut myself since I nearly hacked the finger next to this one in Home Ec. class while cutting a tomato many years ago. But yes, I was certainly doing it wrong when I sliced it, and I need to sharpen my knife as well.
     
  7. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Ok here's the video for ease of reference...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0J2uw6El-Q&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Self-defense tips and demonstration[/ame]

    Technique at 1:52... you trained that with full resistance and maintain that from that position with one point of contact on the hip that...

    "no matter what I do, if I'm coming at her and she pushes the hip in I can't get any closer"

    do you?

    2:27

    "fundamentally because of physics if I'm trying to sexually assault someone I can't actually do anything with this arm (waves knife arm) because I have to be able to support my weight to have motion in my hips as we call it"

    what are you going on about? I just tried a few variation of the rape position in my computer room (thank god nobody came in) and its pretty easy to maintain enough mobility in every area that counts ie hips and arms. certainly I would be able to use that knife.

    Pause 2:37

    "so if I'm here"

    that's the position you would be in if you were sexually assaulting someone is it? you're practically in a different room.

    2:35

    the knife is a million miles from her neck (one of the reasons I don't really think the live blade is an issue myself). How would that peel away work if it was at her throat? she's going to be drawing it across her own neck/face/chin. Plus if the knife was at her neck it would be a lot harder to grip the thumb. It's not going to be one smooth flawless motion and will allow plenty of time for the rapist to react by applying a little pressure to the neck with the blade or just smashing her in the face.

    2:59

    "and then she just punches me in the face over and over and over again and then Im not concious anymore"

    Oh right? Shes just going to hit you with impunity over and over again and with enough force to KO you? :rolleyes:

    I think you're giving vulnerable people a dangerously false sense of security with these techniques and I bet that if you do train these techniques with resistance it's more akin to the redman type senario than an actual commited rape attack. If you tested them with any realism then those poor women would be traumatised as they were relentlessly smashed in the face then simul-raped.
     
  8. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    Yes, I read that when you first said it. I really am paying attention here I promise. I would tell any parent that letting their child train in a place that handles live blades is a bad idea whether they are there or not.


    I invite you to address my response to that post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I was at an instructors lesson with GM Danny Guba (Eskrima) two weeks ago and we asked him about knife defence. He said that if the knife is to the neck (as in the video) all you can do is surrender your wallet and do as you are told. If the knife is being held in front of and away from you maybe, just maybe you can do your technique.
     
  10. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    I didn't say anything one way or the other about against their will. I'm saying the "will" of both people is wrong and to be frank, foolish.

    Hope that finger heals ok.
    :cool:
     
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Having pushed them away with her hips like that and lifted her back off the floor, how does she deliver knockout punches? Never mind the blade at her throat in the hand of a fully adrenalised adult male attacker that she is moving with one hand having just woken up.

    Perhaps you could post video of this defence when you've trained with full resistance with training knives, because I honestly don't see how it can work?

    Mitch
     
  12. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I can at some point, sure.

    Also, you can never KO someone from your back (well not never, but almost impossible, especially if you are smaller--basic MMA theory here). The point is to control the weapon, and claw the eyes. The key is that the attacker can't simultaneously engage in sexual intercourse (rape), hold themself up, and adequately threaten with a weapon. That is why the knife at the throat can be attacked. The hip lift is the key to the technique, btw; it's a common move in sub grappling.
     
  13. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    That sounds very reasonable.
    An Eskrima master would know.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Knowing Danny, if he says you are pooched then you are pooched!
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And yet you say, "And then she punches me in the face over and over again, and then I'm not conscious anymore and the weapon's let go."

    Mitch
     
  16. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    so why do you say you'll be knocked out?

    control the knife withone hand against a angry rapey man with adrenaline rushing through your body, dazed and frightened possibly drugged and presumably with the weight disadvantage, against someone who may well make a habit of this activity.

    Why say to punch if you meant claw?

    that's Horse crap.

    that crap is not sub grappling.
     
  17. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    In the video, I was referring mostly to stunning them (not a full KO). Again, it's a demo, meant for a non-MA audience. Terms like "partial stun" don't fly.

    It can be done against stronger opponents. If you are drugged against an experienced rapist, you can't really do anything at all. No defense will work.

    Again, simplicity for video. The goal is control opponent with leg bridge and knife grab, hit in head to stun, disarm, then finish.
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "Just like that" eh?
     
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Hmmm. "I'm not conscious anymore" seems pretty clear.

    Honestly SifuJason, this is why I think people need to be incredibly careful when posting demos on Youtube. I'm happy to believe that you know your stuff and are trying to do your best to help people in self defence situations, but if so this video sells you short and is not worthy of public distribution as a self defence demo.

    Mitch
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  20. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Yeah they do. You can say 'I punch the assailent in order to stun them'. How hard was that? It's not even a semantic issue... you have presented three seperate goals in the space of one page. You keep contradicting yourself.

    Your allowing vulnerable people to live in a fantasy land and takng their money for the service.
     

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