Liuhebafa 3 Division Push Hands

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    This is my first time seeing liuhebafa push hands.



    Paul Roberts wrote "An Introduction to Liuhebafa quan" for the Winter 2011 Issue 4 of The Journal of Chinese Martial Studies.

    "Liuhebafa is a unique style with its own unique core elements but also contains the firm softness and fluidity of Taiji, the power-issuing and dynamic of Xingi, and the coiling and variable footwork of Bagua. However where these styles leave off Liuhebafa begins."

    "As a combative style Liuhebafa is a martial encyclopedia with countless techniques containing an inexhaustible range of martial skills. The style is however often incorrectly referred to as a combination or fusion of the three internal styles. This is quite untrue as not only does it predate even Taiji as an internal art, but there has been much speculation suggesting that the three internal arts in some way developed from or, were indirectly influenced by, Liuhebafa. It is said that Liuhebafa was created and comprised from many of the same building blocks that eventually developed into the other internal styles."

    "The 6 Harmonies are sequential steps or levels of achievement. They are always present in one's practice, though the premature focus of one inevitably leads to the loss of another.

    1. Body harmonizes with Mind
    2. Mind harmonizes with Intent
    3. Intent harmonizes with Chi
    4. Chi harmonizes with Spirit
    5. Spirit harmonizes with Movement
    6. Movement harmonizes with Emptiness

    The 8 Methods are ways to bring about and facilitate the change from external to internal. Each method is another piece of the internal puzzle and when assembled begin to show a clear image.

    1. Qi - Use intention to stimulate and circulate the qi
    2. Bone - Use the skeletal structure for support and leverage
    3. Shape - Use body mechanics and postures to focus intent and channel force
    4. Follow - React and adapt structurally and intentionally according to the situation
    5. Rise - Press the head up to open the spine and activate the "internal mechanism"
    6. Return - Create a counter-action to balance each action and center the body
    7. Retain - Move calmly and naturally to maintain control, retaining power until it is ready to be released
    8. Conceal - Refine motion and methods to conceal the source from the opponent during contact"
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I've only had a fairly quick look, but I was immediately puzzled about one thing in the video clips. Why do the practiotioners keep waving one of their arms around in the air? What purpose does that serve? :confused:
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "we have circles but they're more like spirals so it's different to tai chi"

    No it isn't

    Seems like re-inventing the wheel and wasn't that impressive to be honest
  4. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    What happened to the second clip? I was just through the first one and the second one disappeared.. :' P

  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Can you not see / suggest any purpose for doing this?
  6. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    From Paul Roberts:

    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
  7. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Ah , I can again see the second video. It seemed to have disappeared from the post for a little while (maybe my machine? ). I am struggling to get the videos, particularly the 2nd, to show up/run.

    Is the older gentleman the instructor in these videos?

  8. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    No, Paul Roberts is the younger guy.
  9. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    From what I see the other hand is linking to create a better body connection. As in creating 5 bows of the body. Both arms... shoulder relaxed and elbow is sunk, chest is hollow...thus creating a good link.

    = It is nothing that doesn't already exist in Taiji.

    * Yang style for example creates the exact same body connection when the left hand is down by your left side hip. Your shoulder must also be relaxed and elbow sunk...with also your armpit point slightly open also like a bow. It works in a similar way.

    To say that taiji pushes in a horizontal if ALL taiji is ONLY played that way, is either very naive on his part or he honestly just doesn't know.

    I use a similar push to throw off my opponents to add variety and for fun we called it the Tomahawk chop at my old school. I can think of at least 2 instances in my form of Taiji that use a similar body connection from the onset of the movement.

    1) Embrace tiger , return to mountain
    2) 3 energies fan the through the back

    I wish he would show the counters to his own methods...I hate when people do that. When I put up a video I always try to show the counters.

    There's nothing special about that push that Taiji cannot either follow or ward off. The other guy is just leaning back and giving up his center. That is not correct. Also the guy on the right is stealing his front foot forward at the moment he's making the guy on the left bend backward. If he can steal forward then I steal either backward or to the side if need's only fair.


    When talks about his straightline version...there's nothing there that isn't in Taiji and also it's NOT's a tight horizontal circle.
  10. ned

    ned Valued Member

    Yes,it was when he said that in the second clip that I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt and realised ,that at least as far as taiji goes,he must be a bit clueless .
    We do very similar exercises to this,both fixed and moving,working on absorbing/ redirecting the circle( in all planes ), as I'm sure do most other taiji folk.
  11. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I could think of a few, but they were all very silly. ;)

    When we do push hands, both hands are actually doing something useful at all times. If one hand goes AWOL then you are actually leaving yourself open to attack.

    Edit: can YOU see any purpose for doing it?
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  12. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Now,I have nothing against LHBF, BUT----- LHBF has about the shadiest history of any CMA.
    Let us remember that LHBF is a "retroed" system.According to its history, a cave was found where the secrets and instructions for the system were left written down in a book or two,by a Taoist sage 300 years earlier.Oh,really??? It's 1,000 years old,too.Yeah...Problem is that Wu,Yi Hui seems to be the first person actually on record as having taught it.He's sometimes referred to as the founder.Which it seems he was,esp. if one looks into what has been written without the fairy tale stuff,simply that he combined a couple systems from his area plus whatever else to make a system which is named after the two parent systems. Awfully dull,tho',regional systems and sweaty practitioners. Bring on the Taoist sages to keep up people's interest!

    That ph routine w/the unattached arm-I've seen similar,nothing new. Just another variation on single hand. That rear hand does seem to be doing a lot of wasted motion,but we'd need to find out if there is something specific they're doing w/that (that makes it worth it) before condemning that particular practice.
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I wasn't condemning it, I was simply curious because I couldn't see any purpose behind it. Looked like a bit of a 'flowery' movement, but if there is a reason for it then I'd be interested to hear it. Tom Bayley seems to be hinting that he knows what it is for, so hopefully he will share.

    When we do double hands, both hands must be engaged and active at all times, otherwise you are simply open to attack. (Since your opponent has two hands!) In single, the other hand isn't really doing anything, but should remain 'alive' and not 'go to sleep'.
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I'm not sure about this, but I think I read in the other forum this was posted that it's described as a "balancing hand". So make of that what you will.
    I don't believe there's anything particularly exclusive about what I have seen and heard of LHBF Tui Shou btw..

    As for the history, I have to agree with the comments of The Doc, it's a bit cloudy for sure. It reminds be a bit of Bagua history and Dong Hai Chuan. On one hand you have many people suspecting Dong created the system from what he learnt prior, but alongside that you have the whole "my teacher was a mysterious Taoist monk".

    One is a fair hypothesis constructed on available knowledge, the other a questionable oral history. Add to that Chinese culture is such that oral history can be somewhat unreliable -in that it would be favourable for both men to not be seen as the creators of these styles.

    There's no doubting Wu Yi Hui was pretty bad ass and had a top reputation, again similar to DHC. He was one of the guys Wang Zhang Xai rated highly for instance.

    I think when people pick up on similarities with other major internal styles, that there may be an underlying connection they may not be too far off. How and why that came to be, will probably always be subject to speculation.
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Yes, I could understand a hand being extended backwards and upwards as a counter-balance if they were doing (say) a sabre form. There it makes complete sense. But in pushing hands I can't see what you would need to counter-balance. I must be missing something!
  17. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    It's not counter balance... really.

    If your lead arm is a bow of energy pushing forward ...the rear arm is a bow of energy pushing opposite or linking in another direction like up or down.

    Basically one hand feeds the other. It is a kung fu basic used by allot of other styles and as I said back in post #9 it's for a better body connection. End result, better power.

    Also, I can understand the guy is just trying to "speak up well" about his own style. But there's really nothing that he's doing that isn't in Taiji as well. Seems alittle one dimensional if you ask me.
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Personally I think the purpose as Subitai describes below is better practiced outside the confines of ph rather than as part of a ph routine.But that's just personal taste/approach.

    Well, it's a matter of record that all/most these systems w/a lot of "internal" stuff come from the same general area in the north.So really no surprise as regards similarities.Many other non-"internal" northern systems have some of those methods, also.

    Seems odd he thinks TC ph is horizontal when most of the methods are actually on the vertical.The only sub-system I know of that emphasizes the horizontal is Cheng,C-m's.
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't like the static PH. IMO, to "move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path and lead him into the emptiness" is more important than "yielding". It's OK to train the static PH during the beginner stage. You should move into moving step PH after that and never turn back.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  20. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    If you are not moving your feet you are not training to fight. Fixed step push hands is as unrealistic as it gets. And irrespective of the style or situation yielding is always wrong. One arm represents a shield and the other a sword. You would never yield in that situation. The shield cannot protect the body if it yields.

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