So many people walk into the dojang doors and barely stay long enough to make an impression. Those few who stay on through white belt and the color belt ranks suffer dropouts and losses on the path to 1st dan. Of those few (some say 1 in a 1000) who make 1st dan, even fewer stay on to 2nd, 3rd, and higher dans. For women in the martial arts, especially in the Korean arts, many find additional pressure (societal and peer) to quit. Much fewer women can be found in the higher ranks of TKD. Anyone who works hard and follows the path to "master" is truly someone that has been tested and deemed worthy by their instructor. September 2005's Taekwondo Times has a great article entitled "GRM. B.C. Yu's Legacy of Female Masters" on pp. 54-63 and lists a -whole bunch of his (female) students who have earned the title "master" (from Taekwondo Institutes of America), including: 1. Teresa Mann (Canton, Michigan) 2. Andrea Malik (Potsdam, NY) - see below 3. Marti Lynn (Traverse City, Michigan) 4. Jane Ophoff (Ann Arbor, Michigan) 5. Sue Godell (Ann Arbor) 6. Gina Tatum (Orange, VA) 7. Stacy Fowler 8. Pat Cole (Hooksett, NH) 9. Mattie Jordan (Ypsilanti, Michigan) 10. Laura Adamanson (6th dan) The same issue also lists (on p.24)... -Brenda Sell's WTF 8th dan promotion (Lakeland Florida) -Rochester NY's Sandra Flower's promotion to ITF 6th dan - Long Island NY's Margaret Messina's promotion to 5th dan I loved the long article and it's packed with pictures and personal account. Best of all, I know Master Andrea Malik. She runs a great (low key) program at State University of New York (SUNY) at Potsdam. I've only met her a few times but I believe in evaluating an instructor based on their students. One of her students trains with us everytime Master Malik goes on break. Her student has great fundamentals, forms and self defence skills. Master Malik is held in very high esteem here in Potsdam and I would recommend her program to anyone coming to SUNY Potsdam. How about a big shout-out to all of the female masters you know, especially those who have affected your martial arts training and/or ideas. Give us some stories!!!!!
Thanks for the interesting info on female masters Thomas. You're quite right about the societal & peer pressures involved. I'm having a difficult time getting to third dan at the moment but having to one day achieve that rank of "master" would indeed be quite the accomplishment. I'll have to make it a point to read the Sept issue of TT...
Can someone tell me what is the earliest rank to be associated with master and how many yrs in training (average) it takes to aquire this rank.
Master Rank per the ITF (Chang Hon TKD)... Sir, Per general ITF guide lines the title of "Master" is granted at the 7th Dan (the ITF has cirriculum up to the 7th Dan). Here is the math on the average number of years to 7th Dan (assuming bare minimum standards and no set backs) 9th Gup to 1st Dan = 3 1st Dan to 2nd = 2 2nd to 3rd = 3 3rd to 4th = 4 4th to 5th = 5 5th to 6th = 6 6th to 7th = 7 ________________ TOTAL: 30 yrs (Consistent training and testing) TAEKWON! SpookeY
First, the bad news: I've seen B.C Yu's classes in action. My opinion of B.C. Yu ranges somewhere between contempt and disdain. I've always thought that based on the photos of him, Yu belonged in the class for "special kids". Having said that, I understand fully what female students are up against. Maybe not fully, since I am not one of them. However, traditional Korean culture is very patriarchal. The man is in charge. My Instructor was no exception to that rule. It was not until his senior students were teaching that female Master-level Instructors began to appear in our organization. It was nothing personal, he was raised traditional Korean. Even now, the organization tends to be biased in favor of men. I respect any woman who refuses to buckle under. I gladly teach and recommend any woman willing to put the time and work in. That includes up to Master Instructor.
Back to the topic! Dear All, With all the ITF/Chang Hon TKD practitioners on here I am ashamed that no one has thought to mention Mrs. Renee Sereff (wife of 9th Dan Charles E. Sereff)~ TAEKWON! SPooKeY
Was starting to think there were no ITF female Masters, I train in the uk and have never seen a female master. Are there any in the uk?? In what way are you having difficulty? do you feel your being unfairly treated or is it a personal difficulty? I found an article on the web talking about discrimination in the WTF, claiming that only male Korean instructors were being giving top rankings in an attempt to keep TKD "pure" Is there discrimination towards promoting women within the ITF?
As I said before, Korea traditionally is very patriarchal. For a long time, women were strongly discouraged from even practicing Tae Kwon Do, much less becoming Instructors. Women have only entered the upper echelons of Tae Kwon Do within the last, say, 20 years. They simply have not been encouraged to practice long enough to have produced 7th, 8th, and 9th Dan Black Belts. Another problem is that, Korean society being what it is, many of the current Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters simply would not take them seriously. What is happening is that women are advancing in the ranks and being recognized as Instructors outside Korea, here in America for example. Our organization has several female Masters, one being 6th Dan. However, with the exception of very few, they all are the products of Senior Instructors who are less hesitant to teach females. In other words, few of them learned directly under our Grandmaster himself. Most learned under his students, who are products of American society.
I am neither ITF or WTF, so thankfully I am not being treated unfairly. Purely personal difficulty..... had I started my martial arts training at an earlier age, earning a master's rank might be more attainable.
Disclaimer: I am in no ways trying to moderate. I started this thread in the hopes of having a good positive thread where people can pay compliments to various female masters they know. It's depressing to see negativity, insults, and meanness inserted already. I do not know GM B.C. Yu personally. I do his student, Master Andrea Malik and train often with one of her students. Master Malik and her student are great martial artists and people of great character, humility, and class. If a student represents their instructor, these two people tewll me that GM Yu must be a great instructor. Basing an opinion of someone on photos is hardly, in my personal opinion, the most accurate way of evaluating someone. I also find your statement very offensive, not only for the implied insult of a well-regarded grandmaster but also for your implication of the inferiorty and natural "contempt and disdain" for what yopu call "special kids". As someone who works a lot with "special kids", seeing students perform at the level of their peers when it takes them up to 10 times the effort to achieve that has made me deeply respect the hard work and accomplishments of "special kids" And having a "special kid" as a little sister who is currently earning her P.h.D at the university of Buffalo lends credence to the old adage that "looks may be deceiving"
Perhaps I missed something here... or I haven't taken this in the same context as Thomas has ... but I do hope TraditionalTKD can offer us further explain here. (from what I know BC Yu trained directly under General Choi and has been instructing for nearly 40 years...)
I'm not trying to be mean, I am stating what I believe based on observations. 1. I have seen a couple of B.C. Yu's classes. Basics were horrible, several people at once would kick a sandbag, which is a recipe for disaster. The fact that he studied under Gen. Choi is irrelevant. I know black belts in our organization that studied under our Grandmaster whose technique is less than decent. 2. Based on the photos I have seen of B.C. Yu, in my opinion he has the look of someone mentally deficient. Someone who has developed great power and holds high rank in Tae Kwon Do, when you look in their eyes, they have the look of one who is not to be messed with. Same as a tiger. B.C. Yu does not have this look. I do not mean to sound condescending to the mentally deficient. They can't help the way they are and are usually great people. But B.C. Yu, in my opinion, has the look of someone who fits this category. He does not have the look of power developed from many years of practice. My Instructor, Won Kuk Lee, Gen. Choi, and Hee Il Cho have this look. B.C. Yu does not.
I don't get that loomk ing the eye thing. I know plenty of so-called "normal" folks...not MAists with htat eye of the tiger look. Often have anger issues. I DEFINITELY know some so-called "special" kids with that same look. Hell, it's what pays my mortgage. I also know some fantastic martial artists who look like normal nice guys. None of this "eywe of the tiger repect me or I'll eat your spleen" look in their eye. Wouldn't wanna cross 'em though. TraditonalTKD, right now, you sound like that private investigator from the movie "There's Something about Mary." In trying to make an unsupportbale point, you are not only insulting everyone but digging yourself deeper. Best quit while you're ahead. Peace, Erik
I was certainly hoping for a bit more of a "qualified" explanation rather than what you have posted. Getting back to the original subject of the thread..... The role-changing women's movement of the 1970s and the dramatic increase in crime (particularly crimes against women, such as rape, abductions, and woman battering) was a factor for female interest in the then primarily male dominant martial arts. There does seem to be more active women Black Belt instructors, and more women students on the rise.... and as with most of life, martial art trends are cyclical. With the increasing amount of women studying and teaching martial arts you will soon see more female masters in the martial arts.
you're right. even in movies, the good guys who beat the bad guys don't have this look traditional TKD is talking about. so let's drop the subject and get back to us, female martial artists
For what its worth I know the look he means tho... If you are an MAist you dont necessarily have it, but if you have it you know they are a MAist! (or in the SAS or similar) It sure is a dangerous tiger-like look. At least 3 of the BBs at my club have that look, one in particular I wud not like to meet in a dark alley or have the misfortune of upsetting, I swear he needs some sedatives, the man has too much energy. As for female Masters, I know know. I know few lady BBs (altho there are many more where I train at uni that home) and at least 1 BB who quite when she got pregnant. Fair enough but women seem to drop like flies compared to the guys - deffo agree with the "societal pressures" deal. So true, it causes women to miss out on many things on life.
Our highest rank female instructor in my org. (badgers also) is a 4th degree. But has been training under our Master for at least 35 yrs, But we also dont have any males over 5th degree and im pretty sure we only have one at that. And hes been training for over 40 yrs with our master.
I've only been training for 12 years and by years end should earn 3rd dan. Actually in our school 5th dan is considered "master" ... so there is a possibility. If I can train for 12 more years I might get there.... but I doubt it
