My issue with that the similarities with Ba Gua and the Chinese’s Internal Arts also exist in Aiki Ju Jitsu (AJJ). AJJ predates Aikido and Ba Gua (which was codified in the 1850's). In fact Aiki Ju Jitsu's roots trace back to the traditional Japanese martial art of Daitoryu (which dates back to ~850AD). It's believed that there was less cross-pollination between the Early Japanese and Chinese Arts. So it's very possible that the same concepts were being developed in both places. There's nothing necessarily magical about the concepts of the CMA. So there's no reason one can't assume that another group of geographically separate martial artists didn't reach the same base ideas on their own. This is similar to the parallel evolutions of Western and Filipino boxing that are being discussed in another thread here at MAP. I am prepared to suggest that there might have been some cross-pollination of ideas in more recent years. It is very possible that O Sensei was exposed to the ideas of the internal CMA's and "tweaked" some of his ideas and techniques. But I do think, from my limited research, that stating that the root of Aikido is in the CMA is a very shaky assumption. But that's just my 2 cents. - Matt
I know of only two trips that O-Sensei made to China: the one in Matt's link, and a military excursion he took into Mongolia when he was in the Army. They were both only a few months long -- NOT ten years, or anything close to ten years. All martial arts are similar to one another at some level. We all have hip turns somewhere, we all have triangular footpatterns somewhere, we all have upward blocks somewhere, etc. Amigo, to conclude that aikido is a result of O-Sensei's knowledge of bagua MERELY because there is a superficial similarity between the two arts is fallacious. I've dabbled in wing chun, and I find great similarity between wing chun's center line theories and aikido's center line theories. Shall I conclude that O-Sensei studied wing chun during his 4 months of recorded travels in China? No! I've tasted a few bites of silat, too. I see the same parries in silat and in aikido, and I see the same concept of leverage in aikido and silat. Shall I conclude that O-Sensei spent time in Indonesia studying silat? No! Again, I'd like to read the biographies that tell of his bagua or tai chi studies. That's not something that I've read about. One would expect that the Doshu and the first generation students would have recorded it for us in observance of their duty to preserve the true history of the art.
i'm not talking about the external movements. aikido's principles, at least the ones we were taught, emphasize on not using force, or independent movement to neutralize. rather it says to use the whole body as a unit. this is the fundamental difference between the external and internal martial arts, to learn how to move your body as one and not independently. also the emphasis on using qi, rather than force, to neutralize/subdue an opponent. this is the similarity that i'm talking about between aikido and the internal chinese martial arts, not physical techniques. the human body can only do so many things, obviously certain movements in one MA will be present in another, even though there has been no cross-pollination of ideas. it is the philosophy that is unique, and aiki's philosophy on combat greatly echoes what is said in taiji, bagua, and xingyi regarding body mechanics, qi, etc. this is what leads me to believe that aikido has some roots (not all) in the internal CMA.
Or maybe aikido has roots in Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu and Japanese weapons. Aiki-jujitsu emphasizes not using force or independent movement to neutralize. Rather, aiki-jujitsu teaches one to use his whole body as a unit and emphasizes using qi/ki/chi rather than force to neutralize/subdue an opponent. Japanese weapon arts also train one to use the entire body, and to go around the opponent's blow rather than clashing head-on. (Yes, I just tracked your language.) Most if not all of the basic movements in aikido have a template in Japanese fencing. Irimi and tenkan foot patterns are in the Japanese sword. Irimi-nage, kokyu-nage, kaiten-nage, sheo-nage, and kote-gaeshi are in the Japanese sword. Ikkyo, sankyo, and yonkyo are in the sword. Blah blah blah, if it's in aikido, I think you'll find a template in the sword or in aiki-jujitsu or in both. So maybe, just maybe, O-Sensei got his ideas from his combined studies of theology, aiki-jujitsu, and other JMA, not from studies of CMA. Maybe that's why we don't have any records of O-Sensei living for years and years in China. Maybe that's why the arts listed in the biographical section of aikido books are all JMA (sumo, sword, spear, jo, bayonet, multiple jujitsu and aiki-jujitsu styles). Eh? I too see similarities between aikido and various CMA. But I see similarities between aikido and silat, and between aikido and FMA too.
it's very possible that i'm wrong.. like i told matt, i wasn't aware of aikijutsu... i've read past articles though on the aikido and CMA connection (forgotten where as i'm incredibly fogetfull), so this is all the regurgitation of what i've read previously
Morihei Ueshiba was one of Sokaku Takeda's (34th(?) successor of daito ryu aiki jujutsu) prized students. I always thought this was the defacto martial root of aikido.
I would say that there are a lot of similarities between the suptle movements of tai chi and aikido but as far as I understand and have read on AIKIDO.com under General and Did Morihei Ueshiba Invent aikido there is a section that is as follows: "I don't think Ueshiba invented anything. What I think he was is, one of the greatest synthesizers in the history of Budo. NONE of the techniques or particular applications found in Aikido is newer than at least 400 years old, and since I can show you proof of most of them going back to pyramidsof Egypt, I tend to suspect that all of them go back that far." "What Ueshiba did, was take a very brutal art, Daito Ryu, as taught by Takeda Sokaku, and meld it with the philosophy of Omoto-kyo. This melding is what made it possible for him, and for those who have followed him, to extend their use of it's principles to every corner of life"
yes it is, that was the reason i started aikido, you just have find a dojo that emphasizes the sensitivity and the spiritual aspect of it, the 3 i have practiced at do very well. If you have any questions ask.
hmm do i stirr the pot more or just let it bubble .... muhahahahaha Well here are the facts O Sensei was an experienced and accomplished martial artist. Like any martial artist worth their salt, O Sensei took the best bits of everything he knew and created a style he was happy with. After years of experimentation he eventually settled on Aikido. The Way of Harmony with Ki. Where O Sensei got his ideas from is irrelivant. It's in the past. Now the fact that there are similarities between centuries old Aikido techniques and Chinese martial arts is hardly surprising. There has been a curtural exchange between Japan and China since Japan has existed. Zen Budism originaly came from China. Doesn't Zen Budism have a huge influence on Aikido? Does any body practice Ki Meditation? Cultural exchanges aside, lets face it, there are only so many ways you can bend a body and only so many joints to be locked and only so many ways to lock them. Sombody some where will eventually have the same idea as sombody else. Take the humble telephone. It was invented virtualy at the same time by two inventors worlds apart who had no contact with each other. What are the odds? But we see it happening again and again throught human history. So arguments and descussion over who invented what are pretty meaningless. Dam I'm getting good at these long posts. I just have to learn how to spell and I'll be running this site lol. Ok nuff stirring the pot.
honestly who really cares how he came up with aikido, the fact is that aikido is different from every other martial art because it still is a true budo, Yeah he was in china, he may have studdied tai chi there or not, I don't know if we will ever know exactly, but it really doesn't matter. He may have taken matters from tai chi and put them into a melting pot of the other martial arts he knew. However, what really is aikido, the technique or the spiritual foundations. I believe that it is the spiritual foundations and that aikidos is the physical manifestation of these foundations ( I believe a main foundation of it is the kotadama (spelling not too sure on, which I think is japanese)). How he truely came up with aikido will only be truely known by o'sensei, howerver his aikido did change, and it is still changing, maturing itself into different budo with each student because each student takes something from aikido and puts something back into it, whether it be a thought, feeling or a rendition of a technique, that is the beuty of aikido is the differences and that is also the beauty in life. The question shouldn't be what is aikido parts of, but rather what does aikido mean to you, aikido to me is the realization of how beautiful life can be through dilligent training in mind body and spirit. Sorry for the ramble.
lol ramble all you like lol ... but that's exactly what I'm getting at .... if you want to learn the art then feel free to join in ... if you only want to critise from the side lines .... go be an arm chair supporter of yer local football team.
