Kyokushin or MMA?

this utter abortion of a post is not the product of someone genuinely looking to learn unless there deluded to a very unhealthy digree.

 

Lets try and keep things civil, shall we?

 

Hey that was civil.......for tout.

 

You will learn a lot more about your spirit when you're gasping for air under a superior fighters choke, than you will shouting "OSS!" in a line/rank/kata.

 

Why would someone choose MMA over TMA?

Well how about functionality?

Cultural relevance?

 

@ Chadderz, lmao your funny guy = )
@1888, you have pretty much lost my attention, however I seem to be keeping yours for whatever the reason.
@Hannibal...Umm ok
@Kuma, I dont think its anymore traditional at all..that was never an arguement or debate for that matter. What makes anything Traditional? Kata? Teachings? Isshin Ryu today is not what it once was in the past...people added all sorts of things..I dont always agree with Evo, but I embrace regardless..

 

@ GrassHopper I hear what your saying, and I agree = ) Thank you!

 

I guess you didn't really get what I was getting at in my earlier post. You seem to have odd ideas about the practitioners of karate... you were talking about Okinawan karate and relating to Japanese samurai practices (which are unrelated and relatively untrue). You were talking about honour and such that you saw as being the thing that set Kyokushinkai apart and I tried to gently mention how the founder had been in drunken brawls etc.. in fact after the Japanese lost the war he acted similarly :

'' Around the time he also went around Tokyo getting in fights with the U.S. Military Police. He later reminisced those times in a television interview, "Itsumitemo Haran Banjyo" (Nihon Television), "I lost many friends during the war- the very morning of their departure as Kamikaze pilots, we had breakfast together and in the evening their seats were empty. After the war ended, I was angry- so I fought as many U.S. Military as I can, until my portrait was all over the police station." ''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas_Oyama

You make it sound like people in karate are not people at all but rather person's that represent ideals... they may have ideals that are worth following but their honour and practices have not always been anything like you report. They are/were men with the same problems as anyone else. As many have said the main thing is the fight and it is said that this was everything for Master Oyama (and thus many of the practices of the system followed accordingly).

So if you want to believe that you are following some noble pursuit so be it but the style has had a reputation of damaging it's students and at times being focused on fighting above all else(wait!! I have heard something more modern accused of this :' P ).

Oh and on the idea that you want to avoid ground fighting etc -

''As a side note: Oyama also took up Judo so that he would have an understanding of the art's ground techniques. Masahiko Kimura Judo Legend then introduced Oyama to the Sone Dojo in Nakano, Tokyo, where he trained regularly for four years, eventually gaining his 4th Dan in this discipline.''

He obviously thought that this aspect of the fight was important enough!

As I said before, you sound like you just wanted to tell people why you thought Kyokushinkai was better than MMA. Your opinion, no problem. It just seems your explanation lacks a bit of truth.

Just sayin'

LFD

addenum - I know some really great Kyokushinkai practitioners and the system has a lot to offer, I just wanted to point out that this doesn't need any fantasy explanations, the style speaks for itself.

 

While there's a lot of stuff here I'd like to cover, I'll try to keep this on-topic.

I trained a classical karate system from about age seven to seventeen. While I take pride in my time there, the knowledge I gained, and the accomplishments I had, it was lacking.

Most of my training these days is MMA-oriented.

While I would love to train Kyokushin or its ilk (you never forget your first love, after all), what it comes down to for me is this:

In Kyokushin sparring, I can punch the chest and kick from head to toe. I will learn some kata in class, but whether they are taught in a way that translates into practical skill depends largely on the instructor. I've seen very few in karate circles who teach kata the way I want to learn it.

In MMA-based training, I can kick head to toe. I can punch to the face and the body. I can use all sorts of throws, pins, and ground transitions. I get to learn a wide variety of clinching techniques. I learn and practice an assortment of locks and chokes. I will get practice fighting at range, in the clinch, and on the ground. I won't learn anything that isn't directly related to using my skills in a practical way against another person- no worry over if what I'm learning will translate, because the drills and sparring allow me to apply the techniques I learn against a trained, fit, resisting opponent. I can bring any pre-existing knowledge to the table as well, and not be locked into fighting a certain "way"- anyone who thinks all MMA fighters fight the same either hasn't been watching enough MMA or doesn't understand what they're looking at. While Kyokushin allows for some personal variance during sparring, the more restrictive rules mean that one is more limited in what they bring to the table. My single-leg takedown, my leglocks, my guillotine choke variants, my butterfly guard sweeps, even the boxing, karate, and JKD strikes to the head that I've spent so much time practicing would go unused in Kyokushin sparring.

I'm a reasonably adjusted individual, so I don't need martial arts classes to tell me how to be a good person. I prefer shorts and teeshirts to a classical uniform because they're cheaper and rather interchangeable. I have no strong desire to experience what may amount to a Western teacher's notion of Eastern culture is, so while I abide by the codes of conduct of whatever martial arts class I happen to be in, emmersion in a non-Western cultural environment isn't an attraction for me. I'm interrested in a broad field of study with a focus on pragmatism. While MMA isn't the only option, it's the one I tend to gravitate to.

Finally, yinyangzen: I always recommend people who are interrested in true self-defense to get at least a few months of grappling training. The reason is this: learning how to move on the ground is like re-learning how to walk. Most people move poorly on the ground, and if you get knocked down, thrown, tackled, etc, having put in the time to learn the most efficient ways to move down there can save you from getting your head kicked in. Learning how to move on the ground can save your life.

 

Love it Oyama was a badass, never quiet understood what the beating a bull up was all about though, maybe if Dana books a match to recreate that noble undertaking the practise of Mixed Martial Arts can attain the level of Honour and discipline it has been so sorely lacking since it decided the sacred old timey eastern track suit was not acceptable ring attire.

 

I still don't understand that decision. If they want to give their opponents more grip opportunities and themselves a higher body temperature I say let them.

 

the decision to ban it or the decision to wear it ? Im with you on the second one there are some killer chokes you can do using your own gi but the benefits are far out done by the negatives, you are adding a bucket load more ways for your opponent to take you down or choke you. I think rash guards should be fair game if people want to wear them, its actually surprising that more people didn't wear them in the wild west days of MMA when you could put on what you liked.

 

I don't understand the second which is why I don't understand the first. I say if people want to sabotage themselves then allow it. Just like those folks who came into the original UFC with long hair.

 

@callsign, awesome post, I really enjoyed reading that very informative thank you : )

 

Here's my take, as neither an MMA exponent nor a karateka. (How's that for a disclaimer.)

First off, I think you need to take a long, hard look at how much you're romanticizing what you do and demonizing what MMA does. I know you're not attempting to do that. You just have some hardwired biases that are clouding your vision a bit. Again, I say that as someone who doesn't particularly have a horse in this race one way or the other.

Looking at a realistic history of the samurai, you'll see that they were a privileged social class and that they were well capable of acts that we wouldn't consider "honourable" in this day and age. Even if they were, within that cultural framework. For instance, a samurai was well within his rights to cut down an unarmed peasant where he stood for one social infraction or another. Now compare that with a test of skill between two fully aware, consenting, trained adults. Does it still look simple?

But then, let's think about two samurai battling it out. For "honour." Honour is social currency. Really not all that different from actual currency. Certainly not particularly more virtuous.

On to the technical misgivings. You mentioned in your first post that MMA looks to be won by "lucky punches." And while that is, obviously, sometimes true, it's more generally not. And even when luck is involved, there's a lot of skill that has to be in place before luck can make the difference.

I think there are three things that go into someone's not appreciating the "look" of an MMA match:

1) They simply aren't interested in the format. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to acknowledge that this is an aesthetic choice. It doesn't have technical or moral implications. You don't "not like it" because they win by sheer luck. You just don't like it. And that's fine.

2) They don't know what they're looking at. I had this problem first with boxing, then with MMA. I didn't understand what I was looking at, so I wasn't vested in it at all. I wasn't excited to see a boxer slipping a punch and countering with a hook to the body because I had no idea what was involved or what he was trying to do. To me, it was just chaotic flailing. Now I know better. And I can see them working these tactics. So I'm interested. It took longer with MMA, as grappling is so very foreign to me. But I know enough, now, to appreciate what I'm seeing.

3) We tend to equate skill with aesthetic performance. Two skillful people cooperating on a fight scene will result in an awesome looking fight scene. On the other hand, two skillful people imposing their will on one another will result in conflicting game plans. That will look a lot like chaos to the uninitiated. But it only makes sense if you think about it.

As for whether you should do MMA, I'd say no. While I think you have a lot of misunderstandings about MMA, I will say this: In career counseling, we talk a lot about personality and how it fits in with careers. We talk about how this doesn't affect capability. An introvert could sell cars for a living. But it might not synch up with his personality. And, as importantly, he would likely be surrounding himself with personality types different from his own.

That's kind of where I come from with MMA. I find it brilliant from a technical standpoint. Though I also recognize that those guys are wired differently to me. I have a friend who competes in BJJ and MMA. He trains twice/three times a day. He's highly competitive and that's part of what makes him successful. Me, I'm simply not wired up like that. I'm not competitive. I'm not that driven. And so, while I appreciate the technical performance, I doubt I'd ever join a true MMA gym, because I'd not feel like I "fit in" to that setting as well as I'd like. I don't look for technical or moral rationales for that. I just make a choice based on my interests.

If the culture and the technique and the trappings of kyokushin appeal to you more, then I think you know all you need to know. I'm certainly not attempting to talk you out of that. Does that make sense?

 

@ Oweyn, I have to say, I am very impressed by how you broke things down and explain your take on this thread. This post absolutely makes sense to me...I realized something while at work last night..I do security so I have a lot of time to think. My View on MMA is Biases...I'll admitt that..and I know where it comes from as well..

I have friends who train in MMA and all of a suddent they call themselves fighters and they think they know it all..I have been doing Martial arts since I was a child...im turning 26 now..I know I have a lot to learn and a lot of growing up to do as well.. So with all the time I have spent training and learning the So called "warrior code" or "Creed" or Respect of walking into a Dojo and no matter what belt you are ALWAYS BEING HUMBLE. My friends Got so full headed...and It made me angery..

I ended sparring with them and the people they sparr with and to "my luck" I won, However some of these MMA fighters had only been doing MMA for like 5 6 yrs I have many years over them and been in countless tournaments and unfortuntely street fights, growing up in south bronx is no joke man...I do a lot of blocking...I MEAN A lot..I was always taught that a good Defense is a great offense...People find it hard to get inside my box, however I did realize I have no ground experience and it was fairly easy to take me to the ground if the opponant was to get passed my striking game. and although i Striked my way out of the situation...I respected that...Had I been fighting someone who lived and breathed MMA I know I would have been in serious trouble im sure of it.

I am all about tradition...Values and customs.. and I guess I wasnt seeing any of that in MMA...all I saw was hard work..hard training constant practice and then fighting.."which is beautiful, thats exactly what needs to be done to win or survive in any sport if you ask me..Hard work and hard training..Dedication."

I really enjoyed reading your post, I feel very educated...everyone who has posted on this post has had great things to say..however some of the people who posted something I feel got to fustrated or angry to quickly and posted a post on this thread impussively with emotions attached lol. But I like how you patiently took the time to say OK..lets look at this from this angle and figure this out...So thank you = )

 

You're very welcome. Thanks for taking this all on board.

 

I think we got side-tracked because you were distinguishing between them on the wrong basis ("honor") instead of the right basis (what you do day-in-day-out in practice).

If you don't like rolling around on the ground and you don't want to get punched right in the middle of the face on a regular basis (a perfectly legitimate concern...I'd get fired from my job if I routinely came in with facial bruising), and you don't mind using kata as a training method, but you want serious hard-contact sparring, kyokushin is right for you.

If you like training with a mix of all aspects of unarmed combat, if you want more competition opportunities, and if kata give you hives, MMA is right for you.

But forget the whole "honor" thing. It's present and absent in every and every sport. It's just that those of us doing more competitive, modern stuff tend to call it "sportsmanship" instead of "honor." Tim Tebow (American football) and George St Pierre (MMA) have utterly unimpeachable sportsmanship/honor. We modern fencers are sometimes mocked by classical fencers for our alleged lack of honor--what with yelling during bouts, crazy-colored socks and shoes, etc...but with every single competitor at every single competition I've ever had, each bout ends with a salute and ends with a salute and a handshake and a "thank you." Every. Single. One. Call it "sportsmanship" instead of "honor" or "tradition" if you want, but it's there.

 

another big misconception by people who cant get there head around grappling, your striking game has no baring on your take down defence, you could have the striking skills of cro crop, andy hug and mike tyson rolled into one and it would mean jack if you can't sprawl when facing someone with a decent grappling stand up game. The only way to defend against grappling is to know some grappling many people are determined not to believe that but its true and always will be.