Okay, this came up form another thread on 'internal power' and another talking about 'in fighting' in karate, rather than completely derail those, here's a new beginning. In my Wado Ryu, we practice a set of 2 person 'kata' called Kumite Gata. These are not usually trained before brown belt but it depends on your sensei/club. Kumite Gatas are, as I understand them, concerned with timing, distance, avoidance, entering and unbalancing. Here are some examples- [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNWn_wbtOY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNWn_wbtOY[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJtCZA8DocA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJtCZA8DocA[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ymbpvkMs3M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ymbpvkMs3M[/ame] In order of the videos, Tony Heap's is the best of the bunch, snappy, good body mechanics and footwork, clear intent. Timo Klemola's is just rather soft by comparison, his body mechanics is poor, and little power or impact is evident. The Ohtsuka clip I've include for completeness really, as he's pretty well past it in this clip (sorry O Sensei). Take a look.
On the odd few occasions I have had chance to practice them, they were good fun. However in general, my group doesn’t train them and I’m not sure that bothers me or not! On the one hand yes, I think they are interesting to study, but on the other I tend to think that there is enough to get on with the 15 Solo kata and Kihon Kumite etc. But that’s my take on it and I can totally accept that other folk get a lot out of them. As for the origins of these Kata, that's quite an interesting one. As I said in my PM to you these tend to be the domain of the Wado-ryu renmei. The JKF Wadokai and WIKF don't feature them as part of their core syllabus (as far as I am aware) however there is nothing to stop individual dojo / sensei practicing them (and I know several JKF Wado-kai instructors that do). I understand that Klemola most probably learnt them from Shiomitsu sensei and I guess Mr Heap did also, but when you look back at interviews with some of the early Wado sensei, there is very little mention of them training them. Also, whether or not what the renmei do are actually the same 36 Kumite Gata as registered with the Butokukai in 1939 is another unknown. Either way, it seems to me that Otsuka spent a lot of his life paring down the Wado syllabus (the less is more approach) however perhaps after the renmei / Wadokai split it was decided that these would be re-introduced. Interesting though. Gary
Iha Sensei has a series of kumite kata that he teaches for that purpose, in addition to the usual one-step and three-step kumite drills. This is the only example of those kata that I can seem to find on quick search: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXysFLeCFjY]Kumite[/ame]
From what I've seen, I don't really get the point of the kumite gata. In the videos I've watched, they're always performed very slowly and formally, with little timing, distancing or observation needed. They seem a little like a more stilted kihon ippon kumite. Not being a wado person, I'm most likely missing something, but I haven't really seen a good reason to use them over other ippon kumite drills.
As I say, I don't practice them, however from the little exposure that I have had, I think they are a little more complex than ippon kumite drills. Actually, the vids don't do them justice. You have to do them to really appreciate the subtlety involved, but they are NOT live drills, they are not supposed to be. They are exercises to explore Irimi, Sen, Ma-ai and Kuzushi etc. etc. The cornerstone of Japanese Budo. The exercise that is pretty much practiced universally across the Wado board is called Kihon Kumite (There are 10 in total) and most argue that there is nothing in Kumite Gata that cannot be found in Kihon Kumite. But as I say - I wouldn’t blame anyone for having a go at them. Gary
And for those unfamiliar with Wado's Kihon Kumite here they are performed by Arakawa Takamasa and Okumachi Koji: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HK3_fOsN7Y"]å’Œé“ åŸºæœ¬çµ„æ‰‹ 奥町&è’å· - YouTube[/ame] Gary
I think they are quite useful, we practice them most sessions are they form part of the grading. My reasoning for this is that it adds more to the kata & kihon, you are able to "drill" a technique until it becomes muscle memory allowing for quicker access in sparring or live drilling.
Not a Wado purist like your good self but I train Washinkai under Chris Thompson. Which has roots in Wado
I wouldn't class myself as a purist either tbh. I've met Chris and he seems like a nice guy. One of their senior instructors used to train at our club for a while also. Are you sure you do Kumite gata? I'd be surprised if you did, because Chris (like the head of the group I train with) was taught (primarily) under Suzuki sensei and - as far as I understand it - Suzuki sensei didn't know/teach these Kata? Chris may have learnt them since, but I'm pretty sure you guys didn't do them 5-6 years ago?
We have pair work that's identical to kumite gatas and some variations, we also have Ohyo gumite which Suzuki introduced I believe. As I said before, I like to think of them as drilling Some examples from YouTube; linky
I can see some bits and pieces similar to ohyo and Kihon Kumite yes. Can I ask though, why all the bowing? Usually (and not just in Wado), one performs kata-rei once at the start of the sequence and then again once at the end. There is no need to bow between each technique. Or am I missing something? Gary
Nice clip! I liked the slick moves at 2:20 and 2:42 That asian looking bloke? (iPhone) was good! Looks a half decent club too imho
Yes..there is a lot of bowing, As simplistic as its sounds to signify the beginning and the end of each technique. We're told to be on full alert until the rei ends or begins... Probably unnecessary but it does offer a moments reflection to think about the next gata Thanks hatsie! Although the clip is from another club location as was all I could find. Both the moves you are referring to only found in the dan grade pair work.
exactly that.. I've been looking through the wado gatas, I'm surprised that other styles don't have them?
The Kumite Gata are an invention of Otsuka sensei. I have done some research into their origins and although Klemola states they derive from Shindo Yoshin ryu and Tenjin shinyo ryu (method of movement and atemi) I don't think they are practiced this way within either of these ryu ha. More likely they are henka waza or application of Kihon Kumite. Kihon Kumite are also not found within either of these systems but there are techniques that are a lot closer. For example number 5 and number 10 are very similar to the TSR versions. Gary
Wado Ryu Kihon Kumite #5 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0A3tX0owtY"]Wadoryu karate: Kihon kumite 5 by Ishikawa sensei å’Œé“æµ ç©ºæ‰‹ 基本組手 五本目 çŸ³å· - YouTube[/ame] Wado Ryu Kihon Kumite # 10 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7YCAHMAZVI"]Wadoryu karate: Kihon kumite 10 by Ishikawa sensei å’Œé“æµ ç©ºæ‰‹ 基本組手 å本目 çŸ³å· - YouTube[/ame] Equivalent from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu at 5:13 and 7:10 respectively: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_9MtlLsrjU"]Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jutsu Meij Jingu Kobudo Enbu 2012 - YouTube[/ame] IMO Otsuka borrowed heavily from SYR and TSR and this is why they are probably unique in the Karate world. Okinawan Karate and the pinch of salt thingy again maybe!? Gary
Hi Guys, and Gary, I'm new to this forum and this thread happens to be one of the first I stumbled across. I currently practise the kumite gatas and I feel that they have had an influence on my wado training. My question to you Gary is, I know that you practise in other japanese budo arts and was wondering what your thought were. I recently trained at a seminar with Tobin Threadgill sensei and he mentioned to me that Otsuka sensei developed the kumite gates from japanese swordsmanship and that they are one of the main ingredient to making Wado a Budo art. i have also noticed that Otsuka sensei performs these gatas more so in demos than the kihon gumites. I would be interested in your thoughts, and if you could point me in the right direction towards some relevant japanese swordsmanship arts to research.
