I rather like "all the cultural and stylistic baggage" and "the fantasy of it all." How does all that get in the way of it being "the ultimate martial arts experience"?
I am not against it necessarily, some of it i enjoy also, but it can really bog down the learning, even overshadow it. Well the ultimate experience is relative to what you want or expect. But to answer.....For instance, much of the ritual in MA is part of asian culture but not the art itself. the fact that the art originates from a certain culture it tends to carry the rituals of the society from which it comes, granted it gives the art "local flavor", but it contributes little to the skills themselves. Think about how it would be different in terms of learning skills if you replaced bowing with a military style salute, and korean rank names(dbn jkn etc..) with a translation equivalent in english. YOu would still be using etiquette but not in korean so you don't lose the mental training and respect. how would that make learning less effective. I think it would ease learning as it is easier to understand everything since no translation is needed. consequently nothing is lost in translation either.
I see your point. I must admit, I would rather have liked a tome on etiquette when I started. The rules never seem to end. (It still might be usefull. )
once you realize that the rules change depending on who it's being applied to. it makes the confusion easier to reckon with. no really..... ask youself (or your instructor (politely)) "how does this help the student" if the answer doesn't make sense it is probably nonsense.
I disagree. Much would be lost in the english translation. Obviously, you wouldn't be learning Korean words or etiquette. If you are talking about making learning less effective, how does decreasing the amount of stuff to learn help? isn't that like telling an engineer not to learn the "launguages" of math and science? (for example, instead of teaching us words like exergy, teach us to spit out the definition) Sure it would be easier at first, but in the long term, he will suffer. Kuk Sool has a mental component that you would be depriving yourself of to translate it.
LOL. That, and who stated the rule. Possibly the time of day and phaze of the moon affects "The Rules" as well. This is why the etiquette book is a TOME! It would be training just to carry it around! I'm way too timid for that! I try to work with a "All things will be made clear, eventually" philosophy. I've noticed that often, when I read, and a question come up in my mind, the very next sentence usually answers the question.
That depends on who does the translating. Are you taking korean or martial art? well actually that a quality vs quantity issue to some extent. Also considering the syllabus was developed under the assumption that people would be training much more than 2-3hrs/week. I would have to say that the quality of ks would benefit by reducing the volume of stuff to learn. Not at all, because the math and science are taught and learned in different languages. What exactly is that mental component since you understand it better when it is not translated please explain. Or is it meaningless if it is not in Korean? If thats true then any english bible is of no value. along with any other translated document.
<sigh> obviously I have less experience than you, but I can tell you that I enjoy it. I think in general, that should be enough. I will now try to explain myself... I wasn't aware that there was a direct and concise translation to every korean word in english that picks up on each nuance of the language The way I see it, I'm taking a korean martial art. I asked the teacher before I had even gone to the free lesson about the cultral aspect. I can see where you are coming from here, though I'm not sure it applies to me personally. I want to learn as broadly as possible, and I am ok with a small sacrifice in quality, for this little extra quantity that I want to learn. as is KSW to some extent. obvioiusly I am still new to it, but I assumed that after you knew enough of the language, you gained aditional insight into the technques, and that hearing the words of new forms and techniques would be thus more meaning full than a direct translation. Learning another language stretches your brain in a different way. If you are being ordered to do techniqes, kicks etc in Korean, there is an extra process that your brain must go through before you can execute it. thus its about the mind and the muscles. Obviosuly knowing only the Korean words, and not knowing the translation is of less use. In your bible example, I believe other translations are important. Perhaps the main idea can best be grasped in your native language, but in order to get at the meat of some passages, it is helpful to use the origional languages.
I didn't mean to sound offensive, I hope we both learn something from this discussion. it is not a confrontation just a discussion. . For the average student this is far too tall of a hurdle, particularly in the beginning.... i get the notion that this assumption is not discouraged, and maybe encouraged throughout ksw. There is not much meaning in a foreign word that you don't understand. Translation must occur at some point. Keeping it in korean helps no one,except those who speak korean as they are the only ones that "know". As a result it creates an environment in which those who do not,, feel inferior, less confident, and less worthy. The opposite of what MA is supposed to provide.
i don't think you give people enough credit, in my experiance, the average student is more than capable of learning both the art and the terminology at the same time. and it should be there choice, not ours. also if the average person dosen't understand something they are more than likely to ask or find out what it is, rather than feel inferior. at least that's what happens in my classes.
You must have a great bunch of students Matt! In all my time I've not known many average students that openly come up and ask questions. Only the students that are seriously into training seem to be the ones willing to ask questions...the joe average out there will feel to selfconscious and shy to approach someone to ask a question. I too was also a shy student years ago who was hungry for knowledge but didn't feel comfortable asking questions infront of my peers. Nowadays I don't care what anyone else thinks...If I have a question I'll ask it...knowledge is power!! Nowadays I try to encourage students to speak to me after classes or email me if they have any questions etc. I feel that in my position I can further help them. Not just teach and train them but to try to help them overcome other aspects such as shyness etc If I can help someone feel more comfortable in approaching someone to ask a question then I feel that is a greater achievement than any belt!!
i activly encourage the asking of questions, and if i don't know the answer i will make it a priority to find out. in this way i hope to enpower my students self estem, and encourage a deeper understanding of the art.
(Without wanting to come across all toady, or imply that this doesn't hold for you also) in my limited experience of their teaching, KSNs Matt and Maxine do an extraordinary job in class of creating an encouraging atmosphere conducive to question asking and non-diffidence in general. Still, in general I agree that many people feel inhibited from asking questions no matter how non-threatening the context (this applies all over - both in corporate meetings, in past days, and academic seminars I'm always suprised at how shy otherwise perfectly confident seeming people are, and how few people actually peep up, anyway, I digress).
Where I train the schedule and amount of students doesn't allow much time for question/answer forums. So...I picked up Mark Tedeschi's Hapkido book. I've learned more about realistic ways to apply techniques in two weeks of reading this book than in a whole year of Kuk Sool. Granted, I've used the Kuk Sool techniques in class, so I have some background in application, but the underlying tradional philosophy has been absent in my education. If for no other reason, pick up a copy of this book and read the interview with In Hyuk Suh Tesechi documented. Eye Opening Kuk Sa Nim comes across as dictator who demands complete loyalty and exudes a meglomanic level of omnipotence and omniscience. It was disturbing to say the least. He explicitly states he didn't want his students cross training in other styles. A shame, really, when you compare his statements to some of the other GM's the author interviews.
I'm not sure my teacher does a great job of inviting questions... his standard thing is to ask the whole group at once if they understand, and expects a big "yes sir", or "no sir" from everyone. Its one thing to come up to him afterwards (which I also do), but thus far I am the only person in my experience to say "no sir" in front of the whole class.
I'm with you on this. When I got into Kuk Sool, I was deliberately choosing a Korean martial art, not Japanese. No offense to the karatekas, but my experience with Shotokon indicated that a Japanese art was not my style. One of the things that frustrates me about American culture is that there is a tendency towards monolingualism, and even an assumption that the only language a person needs to know is English. I consider this attitude to be very arrogant. One of the very few things I regret about being born in the USA to an assimilated family, is that I would have loved to grow up bi- or tri-lingual. Instead, I was left picking up rare words here and there, until I reached 7th grade and could take Spanish. If it wasn't obvious before, I'm interested in all areas of cultures: language, customs, religions, art, etc. But I also can see Choi's point, that a lot of people want the *idea* of multiculturalism without the reality of substance. We romanticize the exotic, and in doing so we do a disfavor to the peoples we romanticize. The romantic view tends to gloss over the less favorable aspects of a culture. Romanticizing is easy. Real understanding is hard. And that's where I can agree with Choi that we should start with primarily English, and progress from there.
If you dislike that then try to go to korea and insist that you conduct business in english. I understand your point but I think the you are not realizing that this is MA business, not cultural education. In order to conduct business in Korea you better be speaking Korean. I think the USA is more tolerant and willing than ANY other nation to accept languages and cultures from abroad. The best do-jangs ( biggest and best quality) in the country use little or no asian terms, and when they do they are often misapplied (TKD instructors being called sensei, tkd staffs called bo's, etc..). It just works better when you speak english in the USA. Of that there is no question.
