Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by Systematic, Nov 6, 2009.
Is there any genuine Koryu in Scotland?
There is Koryu Jujitsu club who train in Easterhouse Sports Centre.
Just on what you've said that doesn't sound very koryu-ish
I might have spelled Juijutsu wrong - but all the spellings are wrong anyway
And it does say koryu budo on their leaflets
Yeah but generally you don't come out with "koryu jujutsu" on your marketing, if anything I would expect to see what ryu it is. If they were to be so public.
Do you know which ryugi/ryuha that would be?
Not a clue - I do body pump there on different nights from when they train. And different classes in a different centre when they do train. The leaflet did say Koryu Budo though. Underneath the bit that said Juijutsu. The one time I did see them they were doing ukemi and some of the senior grades were doing sword (and not that well IMO and I am no sworsdsman).
If that's the case, I'd be very sceptical if it were real koryu. One thing, we don't usually advertise so blatantly. Another, if we were to, it would be via a website and there would be an interview process to weed out the crazies and anime wannabes.
Mind you, not every ryuha has the same advertisement policies.
Crazies and anime wanabees
It's OK we get them instead.
I have noticed.
Theres Motoha Yoshin Ryu in Carlisle.
more info about Motoha Yoshin Ryu here:
(Thats one awesome looking dojo)
(ps, I dont know anything about the Motoha Yoshin Ryu, but there website history seemed to be quite straight forward, and match what little I know of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu)
Hmm, I wouldn't go as far as to call Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu a koryu. It's more a modern offshoot of a koryu with certain classical trappings.
It's an offshoot of Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. Yasumoto Akiyoshi was a student of the 17th soke of Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Minaki Saburo and recieved Menkyo Kaiden and an 8th dan in the ryuha (Some koryu have allowed dan/kyu grades to seep in to their traditions). He was later allowed to form his own style, and that is pretty much what Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu is.
As I wrote before, not a koryu, but a gendai budo that is an offshoot of a koryu.
Hello, in your opinion what makes it a gendai budo instead of a koryu like Hontai yoshin ryu?
I have watched some clips on youtube and it looks very similar to Hontai yoshin ryu. I can see similarities with other lines of Takagi ryu too.
Do the ryugi and mokuroku differ that much?
Of course it looks similar to Hontai Yoshin-ryu, the founder of Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was a student and menkyo kaiden recipient of HYR. Takagi-ryu is extant in Japan in many lines Hontai Yoshin-ryu is one of them. In fact, it's full official name IIRC is Hontai Yoshin-ryu Takagi-ryu.
What makes it a gendai? The fact that it was incepted and founded in the late 20th century. The founder of Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was born in the 1930's, recieved his menkyo kaiden in the early 1980's. Chronologically, it's a gendai. Also, some of the techniques are slightly different from the mainline.
Koryu are classical schools of Japanese martial arts that were developed prior to the Meiji restoration of 1868.
Similarly, as you point out, Hontai Yoshin ryu was incepted and founded in the mid-to-late 20th century. Is it your opinion that Hontai Yoshin ryu is also therefore, gendai?
No James, I pointed out that Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu was incepted in the late 20th century, specifically in the early - mid 1980's.
Hontai Yoshin-ryu comes from the Ishiya (Sometimes pronounced Ishitani) line of Takagi-ryu and has direct lineage from Kakuno Masayoshi. Tsutsui Tomotaro became soke of Takagi-ryu while Minaki Saburo became soke of Hontai Yoshin-ryu Takagi-ryu via direct transmission from the prior soke, Kakuno Masayoshi. (The names and subnames of each line get rather confusing when you look at all the lines of Takagi-ryu that are out there.)
Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu comes from the Hontai Yoshin-ryu line and is therefore a Bunpa (an offshoot) of that line, using an almsot identical syllabus of techniques.
It's a gendai with heavy koryu trappings, but nontheless a gendai.
So to be clear, Kakuno was the Soke of two lines:
Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi Ryu
Minaki was nominated by Kakuno as his successor as Soke of Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu. (Later renamed Fumon Yoshin ryu and then Hontai Yoshin ryu.)
That's different from what I heard - thanks.
What about Hontai Yoshin ryu's Jujutsu Roppo (if that's the correct term?). Wasn't this developed by Minaki sensei? What is your opinion of this part of their curriculum vis-à-vis koryu?
Maybe it would be better to open a new thread specifically on Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu lineages?
The soke of a ryuha once in the seat of power can pretty much do what he/she wishes in the ryuha, concerning the licencing parameters, teaching methods, or even reorganizing the mokuroku.
Separate names with a comma.