Knife Edge Concept

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by mvbrown21, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. mvbrown21

    mvbrown21 Valued Member

    Hey guys,

    I finally got my brother to illustrate this concept for me so I wanted to share it with you. A small detail but can make a world of difference if applied properly.

    We practice our Chi Sao and Dan Chi Sao with what is called the Knife Edge to stick with. It allows you to optimize your stick and at the same time allow you to "feel" the opponents intentions even quicker due to a solid bone to bone contact.

    Essentially the "riding arm" makes contact to the opponent by the outside bone of your forearm. I've seen a lot of other systems will stick with the flesh underside of their wrist or the bottom part of their palm. Not saying those methods don't work but I wouldn't say they're optimized either.

    Practicing this way will allow you put all of your forward energy(towards the center) behind your elbow. Try this little example out to feel the difference. Hold your left arm out to your center. Now "ride" it with your right and apply the same forward pressure you apply in sticky hands. Try out the fleshy underside first. Then the bottom part of your palm. Now try out this method and imagine you don't have any hands and just use that outside bone, pretty much you're in a straight punch configuration without making a fist. Now tell me which one feels the best.

    The way it works is like a knife edge sliding along a board. At the right angle it will eventually "stick" and not be able to slide along the board anymore. The important part here is the bone to bone contact. That outside bone is your knife edge and your forearm is the angle with your elbow being the handle. Imagine one of those razor blade scrapper knifes to understand what I mean.


    Now when the opponent rolls from tan to bong keep that forward pressure even and his arm will actually work like a conveyor belt lifting your stick up about an inch or so from it's original location. You're stick will never slip using this method. The reason this works is because since you have bone to bone contact, as he rolls from his inside bone to his outside bone he's actually lifting your riding arm up for you helping you stick to him! Watch, move from tan to bong right now to see what I mean or even better try it out with someone.


    And when he rolls back down you'll end up in the original configuration. You're opponent will truly do all the work for you with you're only obligation being to equalize.



    You can also see it in the "roll" in this video with my Sifu:
    [ame=""]YouTube - ‪Wing Chun Flow, Pt. 2 - Tucson, AZ‬‏[/ame]

    This is a really important concept though. Almost every block/redirection comes out of bone to bone contact if your really think about it. The fleshy part of our arms are in the minority for usefulness. The closer we can actually touch the structure, i.e. bones, the easier it will be to control. This method will teach you to "cut in" into the opponents structure whenever you stick.
  2. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    My opinion is that attempting to create and maintain a bone-on-bone situation in real-time, real-fight situation is rather ludicrous.

    There exists a lot of the basic premise "cutting" type hands in a lot of Chinese martial art, my own is no exception when we use chuen sao, gok sao, jeet sao, tiu sao, or garn sao.

    However the intent to maintain "contact" will not work because of the volatile situation of a fight.

    Your best bet is to simply redirect or seek to inflict damage at best, or block/reduce incoming damage at worst.

    It also confuses me why you choose to talk about bone-on-bone contact when Wing Chun in general lack the hard limb knocking (at least the focus is not there) found in another style of Hung Kuen, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, CLF and even Southern Mantis. If you don't have the conditioning beforehand I advise DO NOT go looking to "challenge" for a bone-on-bone situation with another trained martial artist (of course) who is used to heavy limb knocking.

    Good day to you.
  3. NUKKY

    NUKKY Valued Member

    but is he talking about fighting , sticking hands competition or a way to increase sensitivity when bridging?
    I get the impression its the latter.

    To the op , has the drill resulted in better conditioning of the forearms? While I understand it would not replace 'proper' conditioning drills I was just curious.
  4. mvbrown21

    mvbrown21 Valued Member

    Yeah, it's in regards to Chi Sao(sticky hands). Just a different way of doing things with the "riding hand" within the roll. It makes the opponent stick to you instead of you sticking to him. Plus, more importantly, it makes you rely entirely on your structure instead of skin/touch sensitivity.
  5. NUKKY

    NUKKY Valued Member

    I am hoping to attend a sticking hands course soon so ill see if I can test the 2 different ways.
  6. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    You seem like a nice kid so I'm not going to be an ass.

    Dude, it seems like you work and train hard and you've spent a lot of time and effort figuring this out.

    Go spend that time doing something that will make you a better fighter. Go put some sweat on the mats. Go cross train. Go test yourself against someone who isn't in your class.

    I can tell from reading your post that your potential is super high. Don't waste it making drawings of butcher blocks and arms. Don't waste it figuring out how to rub arms with your buddy the best way. None of these things will make you a better Martial Artist or increase your understanding of the Martial Arts.

    I trained for a decade in Martial Arts and if I hadn't made some of the dumb mistakes I did, I might have actually stuck with it. Instead I wasted countless hours doing chi sau and forms and drawing out my forms on paper so I'd remember them. Oh and limb knocking. What a vile waste of time.

    Ridiculous conditioning exercises and everything else accounted for, I wasted years of good training that I could have spent doing something that would actually make me a better fighter.

    Don't make the same mistakes I did. Get to a good gym in a decent style with a decent coach and learn how to fight, not how to roll arms the right way.
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Or, even if you don't drop your style, go to a judo, sambo, wrestling, or BJJ school and play with their gripfighting. There's a lot of overlap and it gets interesting really quickly. I normally wouldn't suggest this in earnest but like Yohan says, you seem sincere and I think you could get something out of it.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You sifu certainly could...abs for starters :)
  9. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    If you've seen this guy posting on other forums you'd realize he'd probably take what you all said as mean-spirited heresy and will now leave this forum FOREVER.
  10. mvbrown21

    mvbrown21 Valued Member

    You feel better now that you got your little jab in? I left the other forums and trying to leave this one, once this thread disappears, because of exactly the kind of attitude you just displayed.....
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Relax, he is just razzing you....he does it very well
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Seriously? You're going to leave because of that?


  13. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Bro chill out. I'm not hating on you, just stating my opinion based on my experience.

    And unlike THAT place, I don't think you can just press delete and forget about it all.

    Instead of responding to my (very obvious) trolling attempts why don't you take a look at what some of the more useful posts have said? Especially by Yohan and Ratty, as they were being genuinely helpful and took the time out of their day to respond in a positive and useful manner.

    MvBrown - from my experience reading your posts from far and near, it seems that you are looking for nothing but either agreement with your own assessments/conclusions, or positive reinforcement in the form for "wow, good job mate!!! keep it up!!!"

    I don't think you want any criticism, whether positive or negative. If you claim otherwise then by all means, the groundwork is already laid out for you.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011

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