Hello all , Does anyone know what this knife defense technique is called? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGBg7DtaUiA"]YouTube - Aikido Knife Defense[/ame] It was widely popularized by seagal in his movies but seems to be very deadly technique. Is this still taught in aikido today? Aikikai? or yoshinkan? or is this a technique used more during the pre war martial arts like daito ryu aikijujitsu? im sure all instructors know this technique
I'm not an Aikido guy so ignore me but I recognised Kote gaeshi in there. Anyway I just wanted to ask the folks here what they thought of the uke in the clip? I wasn't impressed by the attacks but maybe I've missed something?
no need to ignore you. you contributed and helped answer my question anyway. thank you for that. And now ...... Aikido'ers : jump in
The uke might as well be trying to tickle the tori with a feather - there is very little need (if any) for the sharp movements of tori as uke has given up before even starting - it is just not any kind of attack. If the attack was fast and the uke's reaction still attacked after tori irimis hiim, then tori's work may be more interesting Im not sure what the main technique is called, maybe a kokyo nage variation. There is a flowery-wowery ura kote-gaeshi in there with tori turning more than uke and not much (if any) control over him. Personally, I reckon kote-gaeshi is quite a difficult application to pull off succcessfully. From memory, I rememebr its quite easy for uke to turn round and strike tori - if tori does not fully control uke prior to executing the wrist-lock. I only carry a tourist card visa with Aikido these days, so someone else will most likely pop in with better info. For what its worth, knife attacks, technques and counters, is probably the area that bothered me most with Aikido - they are too often practised predictably without feinting or double attacks e.g. one yokomen cut/slash with blade retracted, followed immediately by a chudan thrust from the other side.
basic principle..the kisaki (point) of the knife ,points at you ONCE. The kote gaeshe is WRONG.. the wrist is turned where it lies. Not in a large circle that brings the knife back up towards your face. EVERY avoidance has a strike in it to pre-empt the second cut. He didn't use atemi. Ude hishigi..You cannot enter to the outside of a circular cut (however sloppy) Nothing positive to say about that video. koyo Entry and strike for kote gaeshe. It shall be applied on the spot. Spinning around shall get you cut.
In your picture (for example), uke lunges quickly at tori with chudan tsuki, but if he is holding a retracted blade i.e. the live side is on the outside of the arm and not visible (in the photo, the thrust IS blade forward), then coming inside is tori's only option, no? Coming inside tori is then vunerable to a second lunge thrust knife attack from the other side e.g. chudan tsuki - unless tori either takes uke out very quickly i.e. at the throat, before the second thrust gains momentum and reach, or controls (in some way), the second thrusting knife attack whilst ensuring the first back hand knife is not now coming backwards - accros tori's face. Personally I think this kind of attack is extremly difficult to deal with in a real nasty street/pub situation. In a dojo, you could maybe try training some kind of tenshinage against a yokomen backhand knife cut followed by an immediate follow-up chudan tsuki knife thrust from the other side.
The instinct is to get off line. Best to the outside to avoid the other hand BUT atemi MUST be used at he same instant.Going inside you could run onto his left hand. Enten jizai..ALL "defences" must carry an "attack" Knife techniques are VERY dangerous and should take an instant to be effective.Self defence techniques should be applied explosively denying the attacker a second strike. Saddly I have had more than my fair share of encounters with knives and an instants hesitation shall leave you cut. You have no way of knowing a knife is involved unless he uses it to intimidate first so the alignment to the outside works just as well against an empty hand as a knife. Alignment to the inside of a thrust knife or hand brings you within reach of the other hand. MANY techniques and practises seen in numerous aikido dojo have NO PLACE in effective self defence. koyo
lol..i dont know to many aikido japanese terms but a lot have been thrown around.. so whats the basic name of that technique? or the name of the correct version of that technique? and is it still taught today in aikido? can you ask your instructor to show it to you or is it deadly and banned in aikido?
The lock is called Ude Hishigi (arm smashing) it is an ara waza (severe technique) and should be executed lightning fast. It is against the joint so care is taken during practice, "Deadly" techniques are of little value without mastery of timing distancing body alignment and decisive action so asking your instructor to teach them to you is of little value. In fact with a slight change of angle ALL techniques can be "deadly". koyo
koyo , you say all techniques are deadly .. even if its simply tossing someone without causing harm? so let me see if i understand you.Even with tossing somone , the harder they come , the harder they fall?
I said WITH A SLIGHT CHANGE OF ANGLE.You can deny him the ability to breakfall. Below if I were to cut down vertically rather than to the rear weakpoint of balance severe damage could be done to the spine.
They should only be taught when the teacher decides the student has the maturity (not age) to use them only when absolutely necessary.Aikido is a most difficult art to master as the intent is to control an attacker with minimum injury. This is far more difficult than simply "taking them out" Ara waza are ment purely for self defence in critical situations.
Any defence against a knife is dependant on body evasion.THAT is the first priority DO NOT GET CUT. Moving back from a knife attack simply adjusts the distance to one sympathetic to the knife. A knowledge of sword principles such as entering and attacking ALONG THE LINE OF THE WEAPON comes into play. Spinning around shall get you cut. The movement MUST be direct (triangular) and instantly pragmatic. Below against a draw and cut I have moved inside the arc of the cut and struck/controlled the ELBOW which is cut to the front kuzushi... a number of pins strikes or throws are possible from this musubi (contact) We MUST NOT create techniques to deal with weapons..rather OBEY the PRINCIPLES involved. koyo
There have been a few threads on knife attacks, but none yet that I saw that classifies the attacks a) from direction of attack angle - slash/cut up/down, thrust etc. b) with or without feint c) combination attacks. Maybe you would be interested/motivated to write an articile/thread, using your experience of Aikido/Aikiken and knowledge of Koryu arts? You have pointed out in a few posts the principles of most MA are largely similar, so I reckon a well crafted piece of writing could usefuly and informatively generate some interest from quite a few sources here, maybe under 'General Martial Arts'. I have managed to avoid knife fights for all of my life, and I hope to get to the end of it without having to engage in such activities for real. However training for such possibilities better in MA can maybe be enhanced inch by inch, if better informed on the pitfalls/risks and strategies in line with essential principles.
Hi Embra I would not consider writing a definative defence against the knife since I do not believe that such a thing exists. Example..I was once threatened with an attack from a knife when the fool opened his jacket to display it intending to intimidate.I simply pulled the knife from his belt and told him to leave. Example..I was cut three times on the arm before I knew a knife was involved. Then there is everything in between. All I can offer are my own thoughts. One. Use tai sabaki to move your entire body off line and inside the range/arc of the knife.Retain maximum mobility BUT use minimum movement (no large circles) two. Enten jizai..meaning defence and attack IN THE SAME INSTANT. It can be seen more clearly in the sword technique below. You can see the body alignment making the escape while attacking in the same instant. In a knife defence as my left hand covered or deflected the blow (while my body evaded)..my right hand would have struck at the head or throat giving me the initiative for the follow up strike/s throw or pin. Knowledge of the line of attack and the use of the weapon are also most important. This is what I would hope to do based on my experience and training..I hope it is of value. Of course if you can move first denying him the time and space to use the weapon..that would be preferable.
Since we cannot know when a knife may be involved ALL of our empty hand techniques are applied as though there is. This was/is a basic principle of aikido and ignoring it or ignorance of it has led to the introduction of numerous elaborate and ineffective techniques. Below the entry against an empty hand thrust. Same principles as in the previous post. Knife defence as well as self defence is NOT a collection of techniques it is understanding of timing distancing and decisive action. The harfest lesson though is that the EVIRONMENT is light years away from the dojo. koyo
Greetings each I also agree with the above. knife attacks can pose a problem . The basic principles are a must in ones chosen art form . The knife is an extension of the arm as is any weapon . However I believe that the technique used as a defence will depend on the direction of the attack ,how the weapon is held and the body structure of the attacker.
