Thanks, I know what you mean. It has been 6 or 7 years ago but I did work for a year or so with the Ft. Detrick base police teaching them defensive tactics. The worst part of it was the complacency by some of the senior officers that should have known better. Most were guys just trying to get there time in before retirement but it was disturbing that they took the "who cares what happens I'll just lock down the base and let the MP's Handle it" approach to training. They had one incident where a drunk woman actually took over a police car because none of the officers could control her. LOL, If I remember the scuttlebutt correctly they just boxed in the car and waited for her to pass out then put cuffs on her.
Kew Do, what are your feelings on Krav Maga's civilian gun defense techniques, or Krav Maga LE Defensive Tactic's for weapon retention? I'm honestly just curious. I personally train in civilian Krav Maga, but i've been to LE seminars run by Londale Theus and Darren Levin. Darren is a LA district attorney who is came off extremely... knowledgeable. Thanks. btw KM teaches (like most) redirect the line of fire (And from that point on never reenter it), control the weapon while simultaneously "dealing" with the attacker, take away the weapon. OH, and a friend of mine (who teaches KM) was mugged at an atm. The attacker stuck a gun in his back. I don't know why... but Otis said he felt like this guy wasn't going to let him walk after it was over... so Otis looked over his shoulder to make sure there wasn't a second weapon and performed the defense... He was able to knock the gun man unconscious and he didn't wake till the police arrived. lol
i don't think it matters (i assume EVERYONE will be aggressive and have adreneline... and be smart, strong, fast, etc). AND, i don't assume you will EVER see the knife in a knife attack. Meaning im expecting the guy to be smart enough to hide the knife so you'll be thinking you're in a fist fight the whole time.
Hi Random Triangle...good to hear from you!!! I have heard some really neet things about Krav-Maga... Unfortunately I am not qualified to make any determinations on the techniques, concepts, applications of this art. I will only comment on arts I have taught or have a thorough knowledge of. If you have any vids or more info on Krav-Maga, I would love to see it. I additionally will share my professional opinion on similarities and or differences in application if you want. Thank you for trusting in my opinion! Kew-Do
Last night at the citizens academy I was one of the officers in multiple use of force scenarios. They put me in a bulletproof vest and gave me a belt with a fake pistol, handcuffs, padded baton, and inert pepper spray. Our "bad guy" for the evening wore something similar to the Redman suits used in self-defense training, which allowed us to just go at it if necessary. Keep in mind at this point our training consisted of less than an hour lecture on what constitutes reasonable force. First call: Man sleeping in park. The suspect is face down with hands underneath him. I give verbal commands from a distance. The suspect is non-compliant but does move enough to allow me to see that there are no weapons. When we run a check on his ID we find a warrant on him, a misdemeanor for failure to appear on a urinating in public charge. This is important as at this time the suspect is using passive resistance, unarmed, has no history of violence, but is exhibiting signs of intoxication. I tell the suspect that he is under arrest and attempt to get him to turn around with verbal instructions, he continues to argue while I make three demands for him to comply. I start to take an arm and the suspect begins struggling with me; I use the arm I have control of to force the suspect to the ground. Here's where things went a bit off. My partner was not as committed to engaging in an actual scuffle as I was, so I more or less found myself alone against an ALEA defensive tactics instructor with about a forty pound weight advantage. I've got one arm, he's face down and I've got side control but he's pulled his other arm underneath him. So I'm trying to keep control and wrestle his other arm out, while giving my partner a live real-time grappling tutorial.(insert exasperated emoticon here) Second call: Domestic violence We knock on the door and are greeted by the spouse who has a black eye and tells us that her husband has been drinking and beat her. As my partner interviews the victim I shift position to get a look inside where I see the husband half asleep in a chair and he has a revolver. I warn my partner and he directs the victim to come outside and get to safety as we take positions behind the doorframe. With our weapons ready we identify ourselves and demand that the suspect drop the weapon. After four demands that he drop the weapon he raises it and fires and we return fire. Third call: Possible burglary in progress. We arrive to find signs of forced entry, we draw our weapons and use the search tactics we were taught the previous week and discover someone in the darkened room (we did not have flashlights). The suspect was facing away from us and refused to respond verbally. We made numerous requests for the individual to put their hands up but instead of complying the suspect knelt down and retrieved something. At this point I am full out barking orders and threatening to shoot. The suspect turns and points something at us and we unload on him. When the lights come on he was pointing a cell phone at us. Even in a drill it's uncomfortable to find out the guy was unarmed. Fourth call: Domestic violence Almost the same as the second call, however there are no visible weapons. We enter the premises and announce our intention of arresting the suspect who remains seated and wants to argue the validity of the arrest. I spend about thirty seconds ordering the suspect to get on the ground and threatening to use force if he does not comply. At this point he's verbally abusive and giving signs he's not going without a fight so as my partner talks to him I move to a forty-five degree angle to the rear of the suspect and close distance a little, then suddenly charge the suspect pulling him over backwards in the chair. Once again making the assumption my partner will join the fray and help I instead find myself fighting alone. The problem, the suspect had a concealed knife, I was stabbed in the leg and lower left abdomen before I knew it was there and got control of the arm. The other problem, my partner saw the weapon but did not warn me, he did however draw and fire, unfortunately because of his angle the bullet would have gone through the suspect and into me. At the end of the scenario the instructor explained how my partner would now have to explain to my wife and children why I wouldn't be coming home tonight. So what did I learn aside from a few new defensive tactics? 1)This lesson is well known by most "doers" and not understood by the "talkers"; it's easy to speculate and play armchair quarterback but when you get in the game everything changes. 2)The importance of your actions as part of the team. If you are going to go into law enforcement you must be committed to get in there and get your hands dirty. It's going to get rough and if you can't hack it; don't bother, you'll end up getting someone killed. Show up committed and ready to play or don't show up at all. 3)I can be very loud and authoritative when necessary. The transformation from mild mannered me to police officer me and back was like throwing a switch. I just jumped in, took control of the situation and rolled with it. While most people there looked and said, "whew, I'm glad that isn't my job or I'm glad I don't have to get up there". I'm thinking, "That was great! Let's do it again". 4)The whole force continuum really changes the dynamic of the situation. In a sparing match your objective is clear and how much force you need to use is obvious with a police situation you can only react and only with as much force as is necessary to fulfill your duty.
Quote from bcullen... "Almost the same as the second call, however there are no visible weapons. We enter the premises and announce our intention of arresting the suspect who remains seated and wants to argue the validity of the arrest. I spend about thirty seconds ordering the suspect to get on the ground and threatening to use force if he does not comply. At this point he's verbally abusive and giving signs he's not going without a fight so as my partner talks to him I move to a forty-five degree angle to the rear of the suspect and close distance a little, then suddenly charge the suspect pulling him over backwards in the chair. Once again making the assumption my partner will join the fray and help I instead find myself fighting alone. The problem, the suspect had a concealed knife, I was stabbed in the leg and lower left abdomen before I knew it was there and got control of the arm. The other problem, my partner saw the weapon but did not warn me, he did however draw and fire, unfortunately because of his angle the bullet would have gone through the suspect and into me. At the end of the scenario the instructor explained how my partner would now have to explain to my wife and children why I wouldn't be coming home tonight." Unforunately that is the reality of the profession and the need for all officers to understand the issues of lethality. I think about this reality everytime I get into my cruiser and radio dispatch ....."In Service". Kew-Do
I've been dealing with some setbacks. I'm trying to figure out a new course of action at the moment. I've run into a barrier that I may not be able to overcome. AZPOST says you cannot be a police officer if your past drug use is beyond certain guidelines. No problem there, however, each department can set more stringent standards and apparently the ones I've tested with do. So unless I can find an agency that goes strictly by the AZPOST standards I may be out of luck in Arizona.
Sounds like you had an eye opener BC. One of the things we always stress in any senario training was communication between team members and teamwork as a whole. When possible, if you get any idea you will be evenly matched take your time and call for backup never get into a one on one or two on two thing always try to outnumber the bad guys. Too many of the guys I worked with always wanted to go one on one with a suspect and ended up getting the same lessons you and your partner did. seems like you ended up in that situation thru no fault of yours but the outcome is still the same.
Yeah, it was an eye opener. They stressed the rule of plus one. If you find a weapon look for another, if you find two weapons look for a third, if there is one suspect look for another, if you are taking in one suspect there should be two officers. What ever you encounter go for the plus one. It really is safer for the officer and the suspect. Let's say I was responding alone to the homeless guy and he was giving more then passive resistance (force multipliers). In order to make this arrest I now have to step up my use of force which means the suspect is about to have a real bad day and the chance of injury just skyrocketed. Worst case scenario he makes a grab for my firearm during the struggle, what should have been a simple arrest has now turned into a lethal force incident. Its better to wait for backup or just long-form it; if that's an option.
