hmmmmmm Well i don't see what we disagree on then. And i don't understand ut previous statement "that's alright if u don't believe in chi" Old fruity?
Let's try again: When you drop a rock from a tall building, it falls. This could easily be explained by gravity. I could even give you an equation [ F = mMg/r2 ] to explain why, calculate how long it would take to fall, and predict the location where it would land. On the other hand, I could theorize that there were really millions of little purple men with invisible rubber bands connected to all rocks, so that if you dropped a rock off a building, the invisible rubber band would send the rock sailing towards the earth, instead of hurtling into outerspace (as would happen if all the little purple men had invisible springs). Now, we could spend the next fifty years (and thousands of newsgroup posts) debating which is *really* happening (i.e., gravity or purple men with invisible rubber bands). However, the gravity theory explains EVERY situation where objects fall on earth (whether they are thrown, tossed from a ship, or fall off a coconut tree). Therefore, theories of little purple men with invisible rubber bands offer no new information and have no extra value. Same thing with chi/ki. Tell me ANY situation in MA where you think chi/ki was involved. I'll explain it with basic Newtonian physics. And the physics lets you predict what will happen and figure out how to improve what happens. Punchline: Want to improve your MA practice? Forget 'chi/ki cultivation'. Think 1/2mv^^2.
Does how it feels change the force with which you hit a target? Or block? Or how fast you move out of the way?
Capt Ann, Go on then, explain Qi/Ki/Ka with Newtonian physics... we're all curious. I don't need to provide you with any situation involving Qi since Newtonian physics seems to have the answer already to every given possibility Would you care to explain the so-called power of placebo to cure terminal illness and disease? Would you care to apply Newtonian physics to the involvement of cancer patients practicing Qigong and curing their illness? I'm not even going to debate whether Qi or Ki or Ka or Prana exists because I have experience of it, directly. I don't need to prove it to you or anyone else. What you cannot do is disprove something which is outside your own personal experience. Qi is experiential! Newtonian physics exists within a limited paradigm, Qi exists within a Universal one. There is your problem and my meditation.. "The Tao that can be expressed, is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name" Get it? Can't be done...
It seems to be that whatever anyone says there will always be those people who believe in the existence and power of ki/qi/chi and those who don’t. That’s fine. You don’t have to believe; no one is asking or forcing you to. Your life can continue and so can everyone else’s. This makes me think about those people who believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and those who don’t. To those who believe, it is real to them and they can think of times when they have ‘felt’ it’s power. Try telling someone who doesn’t believe in it though and they get all high and mighty, just like people here are getting about chi. Oh it doesn’t exist, it can’t exist, I have never experienced it so it’s a load of crap, physics can explain it all away etc. I’m not saying it can but suppose physics could explain the power of the Holy Spirit (or the power or prayer to the many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the world who believe in it). Does that make it any less real to them? And does it really matter to you? If I say I can feel the power of Chi, then what difference does it make to your life? Why do you have to be so argumentative and arrogant and try to undermine my own beliefs?
Tat, I have many books by Dr Yang and Indeed I have his excellent volume dedicated to Qi cultivation and practice. The article, for those interested, is like but one page in a 300 odd page book with similar clarity of thought and philosophy. So if you dug the article I suggest you get the book. Best, Syd
I'll start with my own Yawn, it's a nice device to conceal emotional content, only don't try to kid a kidder. My point: it's superfluous. Unnecessary. Not needed. Do you want to discuss how to improve martial arts practice in this newsgroup? Then speak a language I understand. No, your point was that you wanted me to provide you with examples of events where Qi was a prominent factor. Your challenge was that you could explain each event away using Newtonian Physics... nice try but the balls still firmly in your court! If you can't understand the language of Qi then perhaps you might want to retire and return when you have come to grips with it. This is like going to China and saying your not going to bother trying to understand Chinese until they start speaking a language you can understand. Pretty arrogant really... Saying "you must cultivate qi flow" does nothing for me. You can lead a horse to water, the rest is up to you... What muscle groups are used? Do certain excercises improve cardiovascular health? Flexibility? Coordination? Balance? Your issue is that you are a victim of your own paradigm deficit. Try Quantum physics and concepts like Shroedinger Cat theory if you want to understand the nature of Qi in relation to Taijiquan and the Tao. This is an internal art that exists within a cross paradigm reality... we are dealing with both and or, yes and no together, yin and yang. It is your interaction with the activities and events discussed which determine your experience and nothing else. This is why each persons experience will be different because no two people are at the same level at the same time... Qi is experiential, as is the Tao. This is why it "cannot be expressed and cannot be named!" Not because Lao Tzu was being humerous and cracking Taoist gags for the philosophically challenged. *Yawn* Newtonian physics is a model. You know that. You brought it up and suggested it could explain any event claimed to involve Qi, away, as nothing more than gravity and higher order body mechanics. It has its limits, as shown by Albert Einstein (physicist extrordinaire, and patron saint of all scientists with bad hair days). Nice backtrack but we all recognize a retreating footprint when we see one. But for martial arts practice, YES, Newtonian physics determines the power of blocks, attacks, kicks, punches, and strikes. Taijiquan isn't just a martial art, it is philosophy and a spiritual way of being, and healing. Again Huston, we have paradigm failure! *L* Think it doesn't? Please demonstrate using qi to a). defy gravity, or b). violate conservation of energy. Personally I don't harness Qi to defy gravity or violate conservation of energy. Infact I use Qi to firm my root, which is to enhance gravity and I use Qi to conserve energy, not violate the conservation of it. Again I think your conceptually redundant. Placebos don't "cure" anything, especially terminal illness. Errr, thats exactly my point. Glad you see that. So do you think Newtonian physics can explain somebody curing themselves by internal power alone? And as for QiGong and cancer, some cancer patience recover. Yes, thats exactly my point, again! *L* You have a knack for agreeing with me as this thing goes along. If you really want to prove that qi is a factor, it would be very easy to compare the incidence of cancer recovery in qigong practitioners to the incidence in the general public Well China is full of public hospitals that have multiple cases of people being healed by Qigong methods where traditional western medicine has failed. By all means go and check the records at the Temple of Heaven hospital in Shanghai! Or better yet check out a Bill Moyer special called Healing and the Mind, if you want that kind of evidence. They interview patients and doctors and conduct blind studies into the bargain. ,BTW, Similar tests HAVE been done on prayer, including one VERY interesting study of which I read, in which the patients did NOT know they were being prayed for. THAT'S amazing! Indeed this is no surprise to me, preaching to the converted here. Problem is, your experience is not the same as the guy's at the next keyboard. I've dealt with this in the opening pragraphs. Just from having read this thread (let alone the dozens of others I've followed to understand this thinking and terminology), it's obvious everyone on this list has a different working definition of ki, and each one is different than the historical definition of ki. There's nothing wrong with that. Many people are using models already presented in literature by others rather than their own original thinking about these things. If you asked people to forget everything and discuss what Qi is, or feels like when they experience it, you would have the same answers from everybody. Many people from different cultures call the same thing by a different name, this is not an indication of discrepency but only an indication of geographical, linguistic and cultural differences. Early writings on chi/ki attribute earthquakes and other phenomena to an imbalance in the "chi of the cosmos". There is yin and yang in the universe and in everything, I would concur. Some on this list describe ki as the body's "internal elctromotive forces". Some describe it as a physical substance, some as a force, some as a mental state or spiritual force. Ofcourse, trying to describe the un-nameable and that which is beyond expression is sure to produce a tabula rasa or varying answers. If you lose sight of the forest for tree's then you have missed the greater whole, have you not? Most see it as an internal phenomenon, many view it as something distributed through the universe. Shroedinger again... it is both! WUJI! Now we have a group of people debating about whether something exists or not, and we can't even agree on what that "something" might be. It is not a subject to be discussed in that way. It both exists and does not exists simultaneously, it is only your interaction with the Tao which determines your experience of it and the result you get... thats one of the secrets! Lao Tsu's quote above was actually a bit of tongue-in-cheek humility that I appreciate very much. Glad you enjoyed it. It would be as if I said, "It is absolutely impossible to explain the Tao. No one has ever been able to explain it. No one ever will be able to explain it. Now I'm going to explain it for you." If this is valid for you then who can deny it, it's your own interpretation of the verse. Can Newtonian physics explain how you came to interpret it that way? I think we all could use a little more of that humility. I think we just agreed on something outside the realm of debate. Best, Syd
My belief, Ki exists. It just isnt that horse crap that alot of people think where it gives you supernatural fireballs. To me it's that drive, the thing that makes you keep going and not be a lazy stoner unemployed and out of shape. To me its the soul, whether you want to believe it or not. Just like the Gatorade and Nike commercials
Shroedinger's Cat was actually an example used to demonstrate that quantum physics does not apply on the macroscopic scale. Inside the box the cat is either alive or dead. If you're not using microscopic particles, quantum physics does not apply. That's why Shroedinger came up with the experiment in the first place, unfortunately its now been hijacked for every crackpot theory out there. Care to explain this in a way that isn't self-contradictory nonsense? Only if you're taking quotes out of context and misreading their meaning. Some cancer patients recover whether or not they do Qi Gong. You don't know much about Shroedinger's theory it seems. Its important to remember that in the case of this supposed chi the box is open, the cat has been seen, so it is not both, it is simply one or the other. So if you believe in it, then it exists, and if you don't then it doesn't? That'd explain why its never been successfully demonstrated to any skeptics. It also sounds like a definition of self-delusion. I notice that while the argument against chi has offered a complete lack of proof of the existence of chi time and time again, I've not yet seen any actual physical evidence for the existence of chi. People have said that they have a tingly feeling in their hands, or a warm feeling inside. Well I get that sometimes too, mainly when I've been sitting on my leg for too long, or when I'm lying in front of the fire. On top of that neither of these, nor anything else that has been mentioned and agreed on by the chi brigade has actually been tested positive other than by other believers.
Ok, here we go again... Shroedinger's Cat was actually an example used to demonstrate that quantum physics does not apply on the macroscopic scale. I think the Shroedinger theory was quite a bit more than that actually. But when I discuss this I am refering metaphoricaly to Qi, within the human body, much like the cat in the box. Qi is in the body just as the cat is within the box. Everything is energy in different states. Inside the box the cat is either alive or dead. Inside a human body the dantien is either being activated or it isn't. In Shroedingers theory it goes further than the Cat being either alive or dead in the box. The point is that it is the opening of the box, the individuals interaction with the event, which determines the result of the cats circumstance. While the box remains closed the cat is both dead and/or alive. It is not until the box is opened by the subject that we find out which has occured. It is suggested that the person opening the box has a direct role to play in the outcome. I submit that this is same with Qi. If you're not using microscopic particles, quantum physics does not apply. That's why Shroedinger came up with the experiment in the first place, unfortunately its now been hijacked for every crackpot theory out there. The Tao is a perfect example of the cunnundrum presented as metaphor in Shroedingers theory. If you look at the Wuji, which is essentially the point where Yin and Yang, not Yin or Yang, combine and become a 3rd possibility, namely Wuji, then you begin to grasp the miraculous. I subscribe to the view that the Tao, and Taiji represents a very basic universal principle which is borne out in the esoteric works of cultures the world over. They show the simple yet elegant numercial significance of an archetypical trinity. Yin, Yang, Wuji Father, Son, Holy Ghost Two circles laid across one another give us the vesica pisces, the third elegant possbility! There is more to Qi, Taiji and forms and whatnot than just what base physical reality might reveal to us. Taijiquan is literally a microcosmic working of esoteric significance whereby the body bypasses the limitations of 3 dimensional physics and the concept of macrocosm or microcosm. It literally bridges the gap by becoming the macrocosm IN miscrocosm! We're looking at the body becoming a tool of sacred geometry through practical philisophy. Care to explain this in a way that isn't self-contradictory nonsense? I just did, but you might need to look beyond the limitation of one or the other thinking. Taiji is not just Yin or Yang, it is both. Taiji when it is both is actually Wuji, and when Taiji is understood as Wuji then it becomes the void which is not emptyness but rather a point beyond duality... it is oneness. It is not contradictory at all, it is simply beyond limited 3 dimensional logic as it operates within a 4th dimensional paradigm... it transcends the limitation of this or that and rather combines both to produce Wuji... the third option or reality. Only if you're taking quotes out of context and misreading their meaning. Some cancer patients recover whether or not they do Qi Gong. Well indeed some may well do that also. But we were not talking about those people, we were talking about people who cure themselves where application of internal will and qigong have been applied. You don't know much about Shroedinger's theory it seems. No, I think it's just that you don't know how to see abstract theory in relation to philosophy and hyper dimensional physics beyond the limitation of the subject matter. Its important to remember that in the case of this supposed chi the box is open, the cat has been seen, so it is not both, it is simply one or the other. I disagree. Each person interacts with the box on an individual level. The box cannot be generally open for everyone because the box is a personal item that is relevent only to the person opening it. it is indeed both until such a time as the person opening it decides the outsome for themselves. I suggest that each person unconsciously pre-determines the outcomes based on their personal disposition. Therefore until the box has been opened it is both! So if you believe in it, then it exists, and if you don't then it doesn't? That'd explain why its never been successfully demonstrated to any skeptics. It also sounds like a definition of self-delusion. Something like that yes. But while it's working for those that believe it, and know how to use it, whose to say the skeptics are not the delusional? Even if Qi did not have any direct effect in combat, the fact that people have a better quality of life, find inner peace and calm through it's practice, shows me a wisdom that skeptics will never be privy to. I notice that while the argument against chi has offered a complete lack of proof of the existence of chi time and time again, I've not yet seen any actual physical evidence for the existence of chi. Then you are at an impasse and again it is both... classical Wuji in action. People have said that they have a tingly feeling in their hands, or a warm feeling inside. Well I get that sometimes too, mainly when I've been sitting on my leg for too long, or when I'm lying in front of the fire. Yes indeed, but leaning on your leg too long does not bring thousands of people inner calm, well being and deep personal insight. There are many, many people who through the practice of Taijiquan have cured themselves of illness as a result of activation and balancing of the merdian pairs. Your using chalk to compare cheese. On top of that neither of these, nor anything else that has been mentioned and agreed on by the chi brigade has actually been tested positive other than by other believers. Like I said before, if you don't believe then you will not have any experience. Qi is something that must be cultivated, then circulated, harnessed and then directed. You can't just walk into it, flick a switch and expect things to happen. Taiji demands allot more than that of it's practitioners. If you choose not to believe it? You have just opened your own personal Shroedingers box and got your result. Your cat is dead my friend... Reality is for those who can't deal with roleplaying games. "If you know how to turn the light of awareness around to look within, using the artificial to cultivate the real, then in a moment yin and yang will merge and combine, spontaneously and effortlessly. If you realize this, it is near at hand; if not it is far away. It is simply a matter of being willing to do it!" Liu I Ming 1700's Taoist philosopher... Best, Syd
Then don't use a scientific theory to try and explain something that's mere philosophy. I've had to actually study Shroedinger, both his wave equation and Shroedinger's cat, you can take my word for it that the reason he came up with the idea was to prove that the macroscopic did not work that way. He said as much himself. Ah, got it now. So if they get better and happen to use alternative therapies then that means the therapy works, despite the fact that an equal proportion of people who do nothing also recover from cancer. Okay. Sorry, but you're starting to sound like a medieval alchemist. Ah, so its philosophy now and nothing to do with Shroedinger's cat. As for hyperdimensional physics, please stay away from the realm of science fiction. People find the same calm and well being through religion, through following a cause, through simply living their lives and being content. As for people curing themselves, give me one example where someone has performed an obvious cure of themselves. By that I mean one where the person did not naturally recover, and was no using any other form of therapy at the time. You've been living in a dream world Neo, this is the world as it is today.
LBR i just can't get my head around why you have to keep having a pop at people who believe in something you don't. Is it some way of letting off steam after Andrew Green chewed your **** over the effectiveness (or not) of CKD? You seem to take enjoyment out of arguing for the sake of it. Just my personal opinion of course, you understand.
Re: Newtonian physics....... You brought it up and suggested it could explain any event claimed to involve Qi, away, as nothing more than gravity and higher order body mechanics. I still say it can, Bro! An admittedly imperfect model can explain every physical effect of "ki" and has the advantage of being predictable, explainable, and optimizable. (i.e., if you want to improve MA practice, then gravity and body mechanics ARE the place to look.) If I say I can feel the power of Chi, then what difference does it make to your life? Why do you have to be so argumentative and arrogant and try to undermine my own beliefs? Shade, I would ask you to re-read all posts I have made to this thread. There's nothing arrogant, or even argumentative, in there {OK, maybe a little sarcasm now and then, but that's it. } You are right, what you believe about Ki doesn't affect my life. But it does affect Spirit Reaper, and many more people like him. Please read the initial post that started this whole thread: S.R. was concerned that he couldn't "feel his ki". My whole point is he doesn't have to.....it doesn't matter, won't help his MA practice, won't even improve his "quality of life". And for him, and many others starting MA out there, I say , "Don't get hung up on ki. Practice your basics, develope your abs, work on balance, work on speed, use lower body mechanics even on punches and upper body techniques to increase power", etc. etc. (Aside to Syd): BTW, as far as "proof" and "experience", in answer to S.R.'s original concern, I have proof that the physics aspects I just mentioned DO improve your MA practice. Ball's back in your court: provide proof to S.R. that "ki cultivation" will help him. ......and try to undermine my own beliefs? You have the right to believe whatever you want. In fact, if you wanted to believe that the "Kata Fairy" would fly over your pillow at night and sprinkle you with sparring powder the night before test day so you could get your belt promotion without practicing, then I would defend with my dying breath your right to hold such a belief.....However.....I would NOT feel obligated to support your view, or to sit quietly while you told this to a new MA. Now, before you all shoot fiery darts at me (or shoot something else :woo: ), let me say that I am NOT putting your view on ki in the same category as the "Kata Fairy". But I hope you get my point. Peace, Ann
But your happy to tell more experienced martial artists that something they profoundly believe in is a load of crap. Makes real sense.
I would actually love to believe in Chi. I would love for someone to disprove what I'm saying, and show me that this magical thing does actually exist. I have sought it out as much as I can, and yet neve seen any evidence other than myth. If a scam goes round the internet, other people try to tell the people who fall for it that they're being scammed. If its genuine then they try to find out. Unfortunately I've not seen any evidence that its genuine.
You seem intelligent enough to understand that "experience" is no guarantee of being right. Sorry you feel I'm telling you your belief is full of crap. Personally, I think you're being too touchy about this issue, and that you're taking it as a personal assault anytime someone says they don't believe in ki. I'm not quite so touchy (maybe because I'm used to people telling me they think I'm full of crap) Anyway, I do think you need to watch assuming people disagree with you about "ki" because they "haven't looked into it", or because they are close-minded, arrogant, ignorant, or any of the other things I've seen you accuse folks of in this thread. I disagree with all the "stock" positions on "ki" for reasons scientific, philosphical, religious, and historical. That's a lot of ground, and a lot of reasons.
