Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Spirit Reaper, Jul 17, 2003.

  1. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Dammit Andy! That counts as using one of your cards you know. :p
  2. zun

    zun New Member

    For solely the sake of andy's eye-balls (assuming he hasn't deep fried them yet), I'll bring to this discussion of chi to a close.

    Report back when you've met Erle.

    Enjoy the chi disruption
  3. thericepicker

    thericepicker New Member

    wtf are uguys talking about ki or chi?
    well if ur talking about chi it can be felt on ur diantian which is made by making a triangle with ur fingers from ur bellie button its like a flow of energy
  4. zun

    zun New Member

    Have you read the entire thread?
  5. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Oh dear... I'm having a Yoda moment. Y'know the one where Luke can't lift the X-wing out of the swamp cause he doesn't really believe? And Yoda just shakes his head in disgust? ;)
  6. zun

    zun New Member


    Is that Ki, the force or wires? :p
  7. Shade

    Shade New Member

    I have to say that it really amazes me that there are so many people in this world who have an attitude of "it doesn't exist because I haven't seen it, and I won't believe it exists until I do".

    But there we are.
  8. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I think the issue is that people who have no personal experience of a phenomena or energy simply have no point of reference.

    There are things in this world that can't be seen or touched and yet we know they exist, so why should subtle energy and the human biomagnetic field be any different? Infact the human biomagnetic field can be measured and proven and this is an intimate of Qi.

    I experience Qi every day I do my forms and Qigong. I actually do my Taiji forms and get Qi circulation without doing my standing qigong first which is proof that your Taijiquan is where it is supposed to be at. Qi circulates around the body at about the same speed as blood flows, this is why it is important in the internal arts to practice forms slowly!

    People who do fast high speed forms seldom experience Qi flow because Qi is blocked by too much yang energy. Another reason why those semi internal schools have to perform seperate forms of seated meditation. Taijiquan is a martia artl that facilitates meditation and synergizes combat simultaneously; they don't call it the supreme ultimate for nothing.

    At the end of the day people are sitting on what they claim doesn't exist as it's in them already, without it they would keel over and take a dirt nap; they just don't know how to harness it. ;)

    To quote my main man Lao Tzu baby...

    "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

    DIG? ;)
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2003
  9. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

  10. RubyMoon

    RubyMoon New Member

    You may walk through the forest not believing in the trees,
    but only if you are careful not to walk into one.
  11. hwardo

    hwardo Drunken Monkey

    I second Syd's assertion that some things need to be directly experienced and felt to be understood. Chi and its cultivation can be equated to many of our internal processes-- you cannot "feel" your endocrine system, but that does not mean that it isn't functioning. To get into an argument of the validity of chi cultivation is completely pointless-- if you are not willing to put in the work to experience it, cultivate it and have faith that one day you will be able to utilize it, there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
    "He who does not trust enough
    Will not be trusted."
    Lao tsu
  12. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    I think your negativity about life is something that will certainly hold your "ki" back from being utilized to its full capability... That is something that you can change. Saying that "people suck" only continues the negativity.
  13. zun

    zun New Member

    For the purposes of devil's advocate, I'll bat for the other team - just temporarily, mind ;)

    I personally think it's great we have a group of sceptics, namely scientist, who are more difficult to convince and question everything, providing ofcourse they are willing to actively research and experiment.

    Our outlook on the world has changed progressively over the centuries. In many cases, what was once thought true and accepted as fact - is now known to be incorrect. Ptolemy, Gallileo, Newton and Einstein were very difficult to convince and without their staunch disbelief - the world nowadays would be very different place.

    People experience behaviours that fathoms science everyday. Ghosts, God, Aliens, etc. For them it is very tangible and real experience. Should others believe them based on something someone else has experience but they have not?

    I have often felt and experienced, and continue to feel Chi. It may be psychological effect (suggestion). It may be just be the body electric.

    Let sceptics be sceptical. They may indeed provide the proof.

    "Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. " - Lao Tzu
  14. hwardo

    hwardo Drunken Monkey

    In terms of scientific evidence, here is a little food for thought:

    Chi, in all of its manifestations is
    a) Intimately linked with a methodical process of developing awareness of your internal processes.
    b) Utilizing that awareness to have superior health, power, and connection with your body by being in direct control of the opening and closing of tissues, the pumping of synovial fluid, and the correct biomechanical allignment of the muscle.
    In Western science, there has been a fair amount of evidence that using certain methods of bio-feedback training, it is fairly easy for a person to develop a high control over one's "automatic" systems-- sweating, blood pressure, and even body temperature.
    Is it such a far logical leap to connect the dots and explain how a person may be able to develop a high control over their muscles for power?
    On a more anecdotal note, anyone who has experienced a "jing" powered punch at close range believes in chi. Ouch.
  15. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Well all I would say is that the same people who throw Qi out the window have just thrown 5000 years of Traditional Chinese Medicine out the window along with it... I guess they are in a better position after under a century to discern whether Qi exists or not... *L*
  16. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Having actually tested it, possibly.
  17. hwardo

    hwardo Drunken Monkey

    Tested it with what? A chi-o-meter? It is no secret that Western science's most significant flaw is its inability to account for the mind and intention. It is like trying to measure liquid on a scale without a container. Chi can and has been experienced by hundreds of millions of people, but it lies in the realm of inner experience.
    Put another way, there certainly is no way to scientifically verify that we have thoughts. Does that mean that they don't exist?
    Or how about this... imagine chomping down on a big lemon. Did your mouth water? If it did, you are a scientific anomoly-- you just manifested, out of thin air, a physiological reaction to something that doesn't exist. Science has no way to adequately explain that, but surely no one questions the existence of that. Why not? It is an internal experience. We have all kinds of them, and a person's experience of chi is another of the same ilk.
    Chi, like thought, is open to anyone who is willing to put in the work to cultivate it.
  18. 47Ronin

    47Ronin New Member

    Cha cha cha CHIA!

    I lost the Ki to my house, I should make a new one.

    (haha, to lighten the thread up with some extremeley crapped jokes):D
  19. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Having actually tested it, possibly.

    Biomagnetically yes they mave have, but Qi doesn't operate within the paradigm of base scientific study, such as... "see the Qi in the jar, now we'll add Yi or intention and see what happens children!"

    Your limited paradigms are the very thing which prevent you from experiencing the miraculous; you have created your own obstacle and draw on it as proof that something doesn't exist. This is hardly objective scientific thinking but more akin to stagnant skepticism dressed up as plausable denial.

    Your invested in skepticism so anything anybody say's won't make an ounce of difference. The difference between you and thousands of others is that *they* at the very least have experienced Qi and you haven't. I would say the burden is on the skeptic to prove it ain't so and given you have no idea where to look for it I think this renders you and your argument superfluous.

    I'm off to 3 circle...;)
  20. RubyMoon

    RubyMoon New Member

    Are your thoughts real? Imagine you are sitting on the sofa watching your favorite Jackie Chan movie, when suddenly you decide you want a soda. You pick up the remote, hit "pause," stand up, walk to the refrigerator, open it and grab a nice refreshing Karma-Cola.

    Congratulations, you have just accomplished magic. With only the power of your mind, you manifested an abstract desire into a concrete reality.

    You can't prove your thoughts exist. Mental activity can be measured but only in an abstract, mathmatical way. To an impartial observer, your actions might appear to be random. After all, there was no stimulis, no outside influence to make you suddenly stand up and walk to the refrigerator. To anyone who has never experienced the thought of wanting a soda before, it may seem inconceivable that such a thought could really exist. Furthermore, the idea that your thought could actually manifest into the reality of having a soda might seem completely absurd.

    If Chi is all in your head, does that mean it doesn't really exist? Hypothetically, even if it is one day proven to be entirely psychological, this would take nothing away from its power or reality.

    What is real? Everything we experience as reality we do so because we think it is real. Your mind defines and shapes your universe. When your foot itches, it is because your brain receives a message it identifies as an "itch." Sometimes the message is sent by nerve endings from your foot to your brain, but other times the itch begins and ends in your mind alone. It doesn't matter where the impulse comes from, still scratch your foot.

    When you experience "Chi flow" it is because your brain tells you you are experiencing it. There is no questioning the physical sensation. Does it matter whether the sensation originates in the body or in the mind? I personally believe that the energy is real and tangible, but ultimately it doesn't matter. What matters is that it works.

    Just as your thoughts manifest into action, Chi also manifests in various tangible ways. We feel it, we know its effects. There is nothing quite like it. Billions of people over thousands of years have felt this same sensation. We have all seen it in action, in one form or another, even if we did not think of it as Chi. We've all heard the stories of a frail mother lifting a car to save the life of her child.

    Lack of scientific proof or first-hand experience does not necessarily mean a thing does not or can not exist. As much as science can explain, there is much more to the universe that it can't.

    Have you ever loved somebody?

    Prove it.

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