If it's intangible, then it may as well not exist at all. Life after death may be a different matter, as the only way to falsify that theory would be to die. With ki though, if it is something worth developing then it must have some measurable effect. If it does then it can be defined, examined, understood and taught more effectively. If it does not have any measurable effect then why pursue it when there are better ways to describe what you are trying to do?
If ki can be explained by physics, then how much does it weigh? What is its boiling/melting point, angle of acceleration, volume per unit area, voltage, length, conductivity, ph/acidity levels, rate of decay, flux...? If there is a car accident and both vehicles were travelling at 50 mph (80 kph), and one car T's into the side of another car, then all sorts of measurements can be taken in relation to surface friction, time of impact, elastic collision, force, mass and so on. Does this mean that the drivers had ki? (in the theoretical sense, yes the drivers had ki, but were they using it in the form that some martial artists use it and develop and train it)? On the other hand, if one person collides with / punches with their fist another person smashes the others nose, a collision has occoured just the same, and can equally be measured in respects to physics, does this indicate the individuals used ki in the process? Even if one were to understand and adhere to Koyo's fighting spirit model, then certainly the spirit aspect can not be surmized with physics. Do we have a spirit? Do we have a soul? Physics would dictate otherwise. We have a heartbeat, we have rates of respiration, we have electronic / neural impulses that can be measured...how about thoughts? Can we measure anger? Even in a medical setting can we measure pain? Generally a doc or a nurse will ask us: "on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest, how much pain do you feel?" We don't actually know how much pain weighs, or what the thermal conductivity of anger is...nor do we have a known means of measuring these to my knowledge. Do those exist? I think the idea of training ki is important considering the emphasis placed on it in MA, with many teachers making reference to it throughout history and present. Does this mean they know what they are talking about? How one trains to understand it and achieve it is a whole different matter, and I don't believe that just any type of training will eventually aid in the hopes that one may soon come to "get it."
Is there perhaps too much emphasis being placed on "ki" and not enough on aiki? After all isn't that the essence of what you are trying to do? Disclaimer: I'm not an aikidoka and so am completly open to the idea that I'm talking nonsense.
Uncomplicated and to the point. 'ki' in isolation is utterly uninteresting to me. Used in the martial context of Aikido or any MA, then there is an element of meaning.
I'm going to stop right there. What is the weight of gravity? What is the angle of acceleration for gravity? etc. Gravity is measured by its effect on objects. Its effects may be calculated based on mass and distance. The point is that gravity might not exist if defined by your lines of questioning. If ki is only measurable by its effect on other things, like gravity, then perhaps the way to measure it would be to find situations where the whole is greater than its individual components. Say for example, Ki doesn't attract or repel like gravity or magnetics, but flows into openings. So for instance, take "fighting spirit = ki" and we can see fighting spirit in someone as demonstrated by their ability to keep going when times are tough. But does fighting spirit really equal ki or is it more applicable to say that strong fighting spirit is a demonstration of the effects of strong ki. There is a void or emptiness and ki flows into this opening, perhaps resonating like waves in harmonics to create an output greater than the individual components. A bit more lengthy to say the latter, so "fighting spirit = ki" is like the shorthand version. Now this is IMHO, but I view ki as something like the effect of waves in harmonics. Individually, a wave might not be easily measurable, but when combined in ways where the peaks are together, they can be quite powerful. Getting a result that is "greater than expected". Aiki is a principle (or principles). It is not a force. Example of the Aiki principle: 1) When pushed, turn 2) When pulled, enter IME
That's pretty much what I was getting at. There always seems to be people getting all daft over ki whilst seeming to ignore the, IMO, core principles of their art. People can argue all day about what ki is or is not but the important point is that it is aiki you are studying. As I understand it aiki is the essence of what you guys and those before you are studying. Just nicking the end bit because you have the mistaken, imo, idea of some all powerful mystical force seems to be a bit of a too narrow view. Similar to the good old "finger pointing to the moon".
IMO, Aiki by itself is nothing more than a principle. The study of Aikido is more fully in Aiki-budo (which was the orginal name of the art as it was before 1942). Aiki-budo is an "interpretation of budo". Aiki-budo could be described as ways to defeat a greater force. If you were already the superior force, you could strike right through the enemy; however, if you are not the superior force, rather than meet the enemy head on, the principle of Aiki could be used. This could even mean to "love your enemy" and thus take away their intention to attack. It could also mean to flank the enemy and gain a position of superiority from where you could strike directly through the enemy. It's not so much that I have an idea of some all powerful mystical force. I just believe that there exists situations where the outcome is greater than the sum of the components. For instance, what started as wind against the Tacoma Narrow's Bridge, started oscillation that took on a life of their own, and eventually destroyed the bridge. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBxQCvVykRE"]YouTube - Tacoma Bridge Collapse[/ame] When in martial arts such things happen where the outcome is greater than the expected results, I make note to myself to investigate what might be going on there. Most often it has to do with body mechanics, structure, psychology, etc. Whereas individually these factors would not have worked as well separately. Being able to put all these things together is not always something that I'm able to understand, and that is where the use of Ki comes in. It isn't a definition as much as a placeholder for the minute details that are yet to be figured out. Right or wrong, I just wanted to clarify that it isn't in the sense of some all powerful mystical force.
Well I'd imagine it's the same reason we say kotegaeshi instead of forearm twist. It's the terminology that has been given to us by the Japanese.
I would say there is. I've said before in other threads that interpreting ai and ki separately is a mistake and leads to misinterpretation. People get caught up in the exact nature of ki and distracted by mystical and fantastic stories of old romanticising super human feats of greatness and forget they are studying a practical martial art.
" both halves would have to be in the exact correct state (balance) for ki, and it's fajin expression to be achieved." ??? I don't know what your perception of fajin is,but from a CMA perspective it's simply mechanics-it's no big mysterious deal,and I could teach it to you without any ch'i development exercises.Unless you accept a definition of ch'i in this context as simply the body's latent energy.In which case do we even need to use the term "ch'i"? Fajin is learned in CMAs through the practice of what are called nei/hei gung ,or power development exercises-as opposed to those practices called ch'i gungs. As any other expression of force,the fajin can be achieved-whether it achieves the desired result depends on a multitude of other factors,not unlike the fact that one can throw a proper jab,but it may or may not achieve the desired result. Contrary to your belief,it's not that these "ch'i skills" weren't/aren't taught.It just may quite possibly be that they are are not what you concieve them to be. Sure,Sun,Lu-tang wrote of the "original ch'i" and that it must be retained.Know what he was talking about?Semen.Yup,see his writings in R.W.Smith's "Hsing I".Not dissimilar to what Joe Frazier spoke of as "a matter of conserving one's strength".An idea which has been proven false in many instances regarding athletic competition. These greats you mention developed their skills based on ki you say.You've given us examples of ki ranging from definitions in Japanese to dog/people communication being an example of it.So again I ask,which specific definition of ch'i as related to MAs are you speaking of?I also again ask what specific instances involving these greats can you cite where something inexplicable happened that you attribute to whatever definition of ch'i your're using? If you again refuse to answer this your assertions becoming so much air.Or text.Or hot ch'i.
Yes! And the oscillations that destroyed the bridge are "Harmonic" oscillations.. that is putting the "Harm" back in "Harmony"..
If it has a measurable effect, it can be detected through application of the scientific process. If it does not have a measurable effect then it cannot be detected, and may as well not exist. What's so difficult about understanding this? What, exactly, are you on about here? Nope. Because there's no need to resort to ki as an explanation. We know what's going on in such a collision, why resort to a philosophical concept? No, physics would dictate that such considerations are irrelevant, since it makes no difference whether we have a soul or not. Yep. Hormone and stress levels can be carefully measured and quantified, so yes, we can measure anger. Yep, again, we can measure this. Your knowledge is sadly lacking. There are other ways to measure these things than by mass (weight is a function of force, not an intrinsic property of an object). Yes, they do exist, both of the feelings you have described can be measured in terms of nerve/brain activity and chemical levels within the body. I think the idea of researching the philosopher's stone is important considering the emphasis placed on it in medieval science, with many alchemists making reference to it throughout history and the present.
Even and clam breathing is more about staying in control than anything else. Learning to breath to the one point, hara, centre, whatever you call it, helps to keep a persons shoulders down and their physical centre of gravity lower. Which in turn aids physical stability. The lungs also work better when a person is calm. Breathing deeply to the centre, hara, one point, whatever uses more of the lungs capacity. More bad stuff goes out (carbon-dioxide) and more good stuff comes in (oxygen). The brain is a very greedy organ. It consumes oxygen like there's no tomorrow. Especially in a stressful situation when the brain goes into overdrive and the bodies defence reflexes are activated. More oxygen equals a more alert and capable brain. Which in turn equals sharper senses in general but particularly for those people who have learned to be observant. Like say martial arts practitioners. And then their are the psychological effects. Which are really just the symptoms of good or bad breathing technique. Everything that is important about breathing in martial arts has a rational and scientific explanation. There's absolutely no connection as far as I'm concerned to any universal energy that only some people can tap into. It's rudimentary biochemistry, psychology and physics.
I've heard there are a few types of breathing and the one that we as martial artists should try to develop is called "turtle breathing." I don't think that only some can tap into ki...anyone can tap into it, only currently some do, some do not. If one is supposed to exhale upon the application of a technique, does this mean the technique cannot be perfomed while inhaling? From what I have read one is supposed to exhale through application of technique/strike to facillitate the natural flow of ki. I have executed aikido technique while inhaling (and in my later stages of practice right afterwards become selfconscious of it and my breathing). Does this mean that ki did not flow properly, if it exists at all? I guess what I am getting at is it is possible to perform ma technique/strikes without an awareness of what is going on at all levels, and to perform a poor technique that still may work, but if there is something more, and someone has gone through the trouble to understand this and apply it, and demonstrate it (lets say for our purposes here in the case of O sensei, or Gozo Shioda), then would it not be worth studying as well?
Hi guys, Sorry I'm so late to this discussion. From a Hapkidoists perspective the answer to the question is simple. What is the secret "force" that allows increased strength, pain reductions, focus etc (ignoring all the mystical fantasy abilities that "ki" is supposed to have?) That's easy, Ki is another name for adrenaline. Our Ki development is about trying to be able to control or activate its release when needed. I'm surprised that in 12 pages nobody else has thought of this as an answer. It is obviously not a recognized concept within aikido itself. I would be curious to hear your thoughts as to this idea.
Adrenaline is not thought of as ki, IME, because all the body's functions are contributors to ki. Ki is also described as "breath" and in such breathing is a contributor of ki. Think of it this way, the sun provides energy which can be transferred through light. The nuclear reaction of the sun is what creates the energy (which be like adrenaline in the human body) but it is the light which we see and allows plants to grow (the light is "energy" that is more like what ki is). Put is this way, is it adrenaline alone that enables a mother to lift a car off of her child? There is more to it than an adrenaline rush. The sum of the actions is greater than just the parts separately. IMHO.
Such as? Without the adrenaline rush, I'd say there is now way a mother could do that. What else are you saying is going on?
izumizu, what is next? Are you going to say that Zhuang Zi coined the phrase: "When pushed, pull. When pulled, push" and so Judo borrowed that saying (not to mention the more than a thousands years between the two). So the saying does not express the Ju in Judo. The issue I have with what you stated is that just because a principle may have been introduced a long time ago by someone else, that does not disprove or prove if the principle has to do with what is going on today. Here is what I am hearing you say, So basically, the saying is really old AND in your opinion it does not express Aiki. And by the way, how much Tai Chi have you trained in. Pretty much, you don't "turn" in Tai Chi if you are pushed. Tai Chi is more about expanding and collapsing, IME. Get the opponent to over extend, for example, and then get them to collapse.
