Here are a couple of photos of O Sensei. I was fortunate enough to train with many of his ukes and EVERYONE was agony to be uke for . It is the foreign "masters" that offer such a lot of exotic explanations of aikido. ALL we were told was train hard. Train until we were exhausted then a little more to build up spirit. I have met too many who have amasing philosophies yet cannot survive in one hard training session.The third photo is typical "breakfall" I am receiving from Chiba shihan.
This post is not on-topic, but I thought it relevant given the fact that this is a discussion forum. First, let me say that my background is in korean martial arts. I have attended aikido classes of several instructors over the last 7 years primarily as a guest participant/instructor while I continue to advance the practice of my study of korean martial art. My purpose in attending has more to do with maintaining and developing good relations with those I had known before they began aikido and with those I have met thereafter. What I find unfortunate is the apparent disharmony that exists within the aikido community, schools, and individuals. I am not here to pass judgement, but I am providing a 3rd party unbiased view since I have nothing to gain or lose as it relates to aikido. As this relates to this thread herein, it seems to me that those having an opinion, educated or otherwise, which is not in-line with the majority in this thread are ignored, attacked, or dismissed out of hand. In my opinion, etiquette should be maintained within the discussion and differences should be discussed. This does not mean that someone must agree with someone else's viewpoint, but the view should be discussed with proper reasoning. I have said to those I know who practice and teach aikido that I find it ironic that there is so much disharmony in "aiki". The irony is not lost since the art and techniques I practice are considered by most to be more violent, dangerous, etc yet there is not the disharmony found in aikido. This is just one korean martial artist's unbiased view of the current state of aikido. Maybe those in this thread can, by their approach to discussion, cause me to change this view. Food for thought. thanks
The problem with Aikido is that many have hijacked it using grand philosophies to excuse ineffective techniques. The hijacking of the word ki is part of that. It's not just a matter of different opinions. It's a corruption and watering down of the art.
Wait a second...disharmony amongst aikidoka? Are you kidding? Have you never checked out the Hapkido forum on this very site? BTW... I'm saying this as a Dan grade in Hapkido AND someone who is active on this forum.
I do not want to derail this thread, so I attempted to private message you regarding your reply. But, your settings do not allow private messages. So, I will simply leave it at that.
aikiwolfie, I don't see it as a hijack so much as a disconnect between training and philosophy. For example, I said my Aikido instructor had trained under Stevens Sensei at a point. Despite the complaints against his writings (which I never knew about until a few years ago), I found that what was passed down to me was very good and practical. There was a particular jo form that I barely remember now but it was very nice from Stevens Sensei. Like I said, I hold him in high regard. I also enjoyed the book "Budo", which was translated by him. On thing to realize is that people did not develop what they have all at once... it was a long process of trial and error and back to the drawing board. I'm sure that O'Sensei did not always teach things the same way throughout his life, as times changed so did the teachings... although principles and such did not change much... being the only constants. I believe a martial art becomes watered down when the martial artists no longer are looking to develop practical application. What is practical about the development of "Ki"? Perhaps from day one Ki is developed but it does not become important, IMHO, until you face an "internal conflict". At the point of facing an internal conflict, your mind, spirit, body do not agree... it is a terrible feeling... can make you sick. This does not define Ki as much as describe what happens when things are out of whack. The opposite of ki.
Maybe it's the fact I come from a Ki Aikido background that I've come to this conclusion. I've witnessed this hijacking first hand. I've seen teachers use the word Ki as a means of avoiding difficult questions. And I've seen teachers blatantly mislead students as to what ki is (in an Aikido context) and how it is utilised.
I trained with most of O Sensei's shihan when aikido was first spread outside of Japan and the emphasis was on hard training with little explanation. Today I see countless aikido "teachers" who have dis regarded the utter effectiveness of aikido under a true attack instead all teaching their versions of the art. If it does not work under a powerfull attack ..it is not aikido to me.
I am familiar with what Ki Aikido calls ki in terms of their ki tests. Unfortunately, they use the term inappropriately. The more correct term for much of what these tests demonstrate is called "rooting" and has to do with proper positioning, stance, balance, weight distribution, etc. Now, the fact that some use the term Ki to mean anything and everything is not justification for the declaration that there is no such thing as Ki. I, myself, never use this term in any sense other than that used within acupuncture. It is not, etymologically, a catch-all term and should not be used as such. I agree that teachers ignorant of what they are talking about degrade an art. Martial artists should be selective in the terms they use and should study in-depth the subjects they teach.
As for my use of John Stevens, since ki is a concept that predates the formation of aikido, and is referenced in many martial arts, it would have been easy to use a number of martial arts masters as sources that refer to ki (and in many cases the references are quite different from the perspective that some of the MAP members have introduced, perhaps even myself). It would have also been quite easy to reference ancient surviving silk manuscripts that discuss ki (although even I having read these translations am still trying to understand ki), but I decided since the topic of the thread was ki in aikido, to use O sensei quotes (however good or badly they may have been translated). Here is one from K. Ueshiba, that I think helps to explain a little bit more of ki, and perhaps his understanding of it. It is from the book "The Art of Aikido, Principles and Techniques," by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Sages of old taught that: "Ki is the source of the life force; it is the principle of life that pervades all forms of existence." Soku, also known as iki, is the core of breath, indispensable for life. Right from the beginning of creation, ki and soku have been one. From that essential harmony, nature sprang forth in abundance, it is the source of unlimited energy. That essential harmony is the basis of the Way of Martial Valor, and the key to aiki, "ideal unity." Aiki breath-power is most enhanced when ki and soku are unified. I post this not to credit anything I have added to this thread or discredit anyone elses contributions, but to share it and seek a better understanding of ki. I have personally heard from shihan as well that have taken ukemi for O sensei that he was definately doing something different, something more than technique, something more than just overpowering or leveraging, or taking balance. Was this ki or ki related?
The ki tests are actually supposed to be a test of the mind rather than the body. The tester is only supposed to touch very slightly and should not be pushing with any force. Any movement by the student being tested is down to that student alone. Basically they are intimidated and panic to a degree. It's all mind games.
sometimes i find this talk of "ki" and "lines of energy" or whatever you want to call them bordering on bullshido. maybe it's just the skeptic in me. i think one of the great things that judo and judo-derived arts have given us, is the ability to sniff out some of that stuff. it's kind of like the double-blind experiment. a really stringent way to see if something in the medical field works, as opposed to some nonsense. now do i think that o sensei could sniff out an attack, unbalance and throw the **** out of someone? absolutely. did he use his "ki"? probably. but "ki" as a life force? or some other mystical nonsense? i don't get it.
Lines of energy? How real that is depends on your take on it. You could think of it as the line of attack or body alignment. When you go beyond that I think you're going beyond Aikido and into the realm of personal belief.
yeah, i was getting at something like that. yes, body alignment is important. but once you start adding something else, then it's beyond aikido to...i don't know.
Totally agree, one of the main problems is that many so called Aikidoka use this idea of Ki as a way of hiding behind ineffective technique. Hey Wolfie, when you gonna come visit us at The Makotokai? Or are you training somewhere that we can visit?:hat::hat:
I'm not training anywhere at the moment. The last guy I was training with started copying Jujutsu from a "distance learning" DVD and teaching it to his class. Needless to say the results were terrible. I warned him against it, I told him to find a teacher, I told him we could visit the Makotokai and he didn't listen. Feel free to pay him a vist. He's in the Palace of Art. I'd love to visit you guys but something always gets in the way. Maybe I'm just not trying hard enough. I think my Ki is depleted. I'm on permanent back shift at the moment. So no training on a school night. Which I'm sure will have you bitterly disappointed. Koyo said you just couldn't wait to learn all about Ki and how to fly the length of the dojo
Before I add another quote from O sensei, again taken from K. Ueshibas book "The Art of Aikido, Principlesand Essential Techniques," I'd like to mention that some have taken an approach that basically includes that if you can't touch it, see it, feel it, smell it...measure it (somewhat of a scientific approach, and there is nothing wrong with that), then it does not exist. But if I could introduce the concept of the mind? The mind, I'm fairly certain we could all agree does exist, and one could spend a lifetime learning about it from the wealth of information out there on that very subject. Yet, the mind does not reside in a physical location (unlike the brain, or lungs or femur that we know exactly where they are), and the mind can not be specifically pinpointed, measured, touched, or seen either. Anyways here is another quote from O sensei, who I would find hard to believe was hiding behind anything ineffective, or shying somehow away from his students questions (if they had any to ask of him): The marvelous functioning of ki originates in the subtle variations of breath; this is the Generative Principle. It is the essential principle of love that manifests martial valor. In accordance with the marvelous functioning of ki, body and mind are unified. When Aikido is practiced, the subtle variations of breath flow through one's being, and allow one to manifest techniques in total freedom.
I like that quote. The quote above does not define ki, but instead expresses it in the form of a principle. It is in the above principle that ki is equated, in my opinion, with that of spirit. I can see this as fighting spirit in time of conflict... in times of peace, the spirit through the strength of love and the strength to love. I've mentioned before that I have found times when I've been in internal conflict. To hurt others was conflicted in me. To overcome this took a different level of understanding in my experience. To confront having to hurt others and to lose some of myself in doing so... but to come back with more appreciation of life and compassion for others. What ever can be used to destroy can also be used to heal... it is in these choices we have freedom... for peace or for war. I hope this makes sense cause it does seem a bit flowery to me...
