It's a very long, deep, and steady breathing, hardly noticable at all. Although not the first place I had heard of it, if your interested, here is a link that may give a little more insight into some of the breathing methods: http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3838 This turtle breathing is not the goal per say, it happens (from what I understand of it) through a natural process of learning and practicing the other breathing stages. On a different note, I can prove that ki does infact exist in aikido: It is the character after ai, and before do. See, there it is: aikido :Angel:
Ah right. Sounds pretty similar to the ki breathing exercise I was taught. For me the important thing about breathing is that it is calm and even.
For those that are interested, this thread and conversation continues in depth in the korean martial arts thread "kuk sool" thread under: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97267
Apologies,I should have been clearer. Theory is that your adrenal levels in combat wouldn't rise above normal levels-like whatever your normal level is for example when washing the dishes.That's why it's not about controlling adrenal release.If you have to pay attention to it that means your levels have risen---so you're in violation.Truth is,it takes smaller levels of adrenal output to mess up some of the methods-(read:they won't work)- of the systems I noted previously than it would for something like Hung Gar or Kali. As to how-maintaining a state of deep mental/physical relaxation which is fostered by the training methods.But not being a noodle.
Citing individuals without citing specific examples as I have repeatedly asked for and which you seem unable to provide satisfies nothing.King Wen doesn't make the cut either.Get real. No, I don't think your founder was a charlatan. But whether he was a pantheist or Baptist minister his spiritual outlook and beliefs wouldn't change those angles and mechanics.If they did,please tell us HOW.You've yet to explain how anything was made different in his physical execution. I wasn't saying Aikido was an "external" system.I was speaking of mechanics utilized in some CMAs which I am ignorant of the existence of in Aikido.As I stated,I would truly be interested if they were practiced in Aikido,but in my limited interactions w/Akido-ka they either don't know or won't say. Coming from mostly a CMA background,the terms internal and external as regards systems is meaningless.So yeah,one can call Aikido an external system.Same w/T'ai Chi.Or you can call them both internal if it pleases you.I personally don't use the terms as regards systems.What makes Aikido internal and Kenjutsu not so? Philosophical outlook?Theoretical approach? Your approach alone should merit my research into and understanding of the internal aspects of Aikido? What exactly is that approach? While I concur that the systems you name have similarities in some aspects you'll have to educate me on what the so called internal similarities are. Your approach seems to be a belief in an energy-( which you can't really define)- which somehow-(you don't know how)- does something-(you don't know what)- which effects one's execution in some way-although you can cite no recorded instances of "the greats" doing something in a martial context which can't be explained via mundane means. Oh,and you feel that cultivating a certain breathing practice "probably" brings one closer to the Tao part of Aikido.I can't help but wonder why kundalini yoga or standing training,to name just two practices would be inferior in this regard to the turtle. So you have a belief system.That's nice. But due to your inability to provide evidence that's really all it is. So we might as well be discussing getting one's power -(as many have claimed)- "from God". And maybe you are.Which precludes rational discussion.
Well, I have cited the individuals at the very least, I suppose if I had trained with them I would be able to cite specific examples for you. It was said on here previously by another poster it has to be felt. Feel it and you will change your training accordingly…and it isn’t so much that the training is with a specific goal, other than opening up and letting this energy flow through you. It’s not so much that we choose to express it as it chooses us to be expressed through. I suppose you would have to experience it first, and I understand if you have not experienced this for yourself and instead continue to search for its meaning, and continue to train without it being a part of your life. All I can say is to keep training and perhaps one day you might cross paths with the right teacher who could make a modification in your approach to what you let happen naturally versus what you force to make happen with angles, timing, speed, force, mechanics. It’s not to say that this teacher would be better than the teacher you have now, or have had in the past, it is all just part of the process. No one person can teach all of the martial arts and what they encompass. And the terms that are described now in modern time do little to accurately yield an explanation of the processes that actually take place. And it’s not to say that angles, timing, speed, force, and mechanics don’t have a place, it was how I practiced for close to two decades, and how I still teach (at the beginners level, and still get questions from the advanced students asking me to describe what it is I am doing, they are not asking about angles and timing and speed as those elements they can see for theirselves)…it is also part of the process, but there is an even simpler and easier way believe it or not, and one that I am still learning. Easy and simple once one understands it that is, which I am in the infancy of doing at this time. Perhaps in another 10 or 15 years I’ll be able to come on here and say with certainty, okay, El Medico, I’ll cite you a person, and that person is me! But until that time, I still study this approach under laboratory type conditions in the dojo in hopes to re-experience it again. The practices you mention are not inferior at all, in fact I am glad that you are able to recognize their merit and value. They are just different ways to achieve the same goals, and some done without the added study of martial arts. Even in kenjutsu the principles are there. Funny you mention tai chi, as Yang (as in Yang style tai chi) was profoundly aware of the significance of internal training, and when forced by the Manchurians to teach the royal guards would only teach them external martial arts at great risk to his own life. He continued to teach the internal martial arts to his sons secretly without the Manchurians discovering this facet of his teaching. A belief system? Definitely, but one that I did not create, and one that was lectured on, disseminated, and written about by both scholars and martial artists alike in centuries past. Except for blending with the void There is no way to understand The Way of Aiki. The Pine, the Bamboo, and the Plum The make up of Ki that we are training to purify From where do they arise? The Water and Fire of the change in the self. O sensei By the way, your signature? It doesn't mean to stop understanding that which cannot be understood just because it cannot be understood or explained. It means to let go of trying to understand it, and just accept it for what it is. Become part of it without having to understand it; because in reality you are part of it already, so why fight it? So for instance in O sensei quote above, one should not at this time now seek to define and understand the void, and what it is. You'll know it when you are there, when it through nature, reveals itself to you. One of my teachers would say a couple of times a year "I can only point the way. I can't climb the mountain for you."
-- Why, do you feel a religion? Can you describe what Judaism feels like, or what Budhisim feels like? Though it was humourous in the kuk sool thread, please don't tell me you dropped your theology text on your foot at one time. I find it hard to believe that when I or others on this thread say it is something you will have to feel that you conclude that feeling=religion. Or did I misread that?
Nope, but you can't describe what ki feels like, and you can present no more evidence than any other religion. Your arguments are near-identical, and the whole thing is based on faith and personal interpretation of experience rather than evidence. Therefore, religion. Yep, you misread it. I only redacted most of the quote because I didn't want my post to be too long.
-- Ki feels like life...what does life feel like? Ask 100 different people, and you'll get 100 different answers. I'm sure you can come up with your own answer. What does a religion feel like? Does a religion feel like a religion? What does math feel like? Can you hold it in your hands? Can you subject it to x-rays, can you set up a camera and film math? You can set up a camera and catch the sunrise in the morning. Can you tell me what the ph of math is? Does it hold up to the principles of uncertainty? Why do some people do math correctly, and others do it incorrectly? And if they did it incorrectly is it still math? What is the best way to teach math? Why does math have limitations? Hilberts program? Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems? If there are three apples on the table, and I take one of them away, how many apples are there? As long as there is something that is living, there is ki. Once it is dead, there is no more ki. Do you need evidence to convince you that you will wake up after you go to sleep, or do you just kind of accept that as the norm? Ki exists as it has been described by those who understood it long before. It is not a religion as in it is something you have faith in and believe, it is already there, regardless of belief. It is not dependent on belief, nor evidence, nor faith, nor actual feeling and or experience. It is not a religion as in it is something you worship with a goal of higher attainment, or some kind of nice life in the afterlife, or in the sense that it teaches humans to get along better with thy neighbor. Ki exists here and now, it changes as life changes. If you want evidence of ki, just look around you at all that is alive, and you will find ki. Probably not the highly complex answer you were looking for, but until I am shown evidence that this is not the case, then ki continues to exist as it has been described, and as it is currently defined in dictionaries. What is so mystical about that? Does reality exist? What is reality, and what proof is there of that? Ki exists where there is life. It is not tao, it is not yin yang.
You're really not getting it at all. You can provide no evidence for ki - your entire argument seems to be based around the idea that you cannot test or analyse ki, only experience it and take it on faith. You're also saying that it cannot be understood, again, a common argument in religion. The funny thing is, you probably think this is a profound realisation. It's not. Mathematics does not require faith, as you do not need to believe it is correct in order to use it. Mathematics is a modelling system and nothing more, a way of describing the universe so that you can make predictions. So yes, you can hold it in your hands, you do so whenever you pick up a device built with electronics. It can be demonstrated that the device works, that the predictions work, and that the models are accurate. You cannot do this at all with your definition of ki. Yes, mathematics has limitations, but they are sharply and clearly defined. The limits are known, and by using the system you accept those limits. What are the limits on ki? What is the modelling system for it? What predictions can you make regarding it and then test? Three, you're holding the third one. Nice try though. Does a virus have ki? I don't need evidence to convince me that I'll wake up, because the question is unimportant to me. Either I will or I won't and there's nothing I could do about it either way. The past experience I have suggests that I will wake up, but there's no guarantee. If it is not dependent on belief, then why can you not demonstrate it? Why are you so reluctant to test it to improve our understanding? Why can you not bring yourself to doubt it, or subject it to analysis? It is a religion, or a faith, in that you require faith to accept it and reject all attempts to test or analyse it. You even reject the idea that it could be tested or analysed. The mystical bit is that you could substitute any life force concept in there and say the same thing. Why not the soul? Nothing more than a religion I'm afraid. As to evidence against, it's not going to happen as there is no way to prove that there is not some sort of mystical life force without being presented with an example of what it can supposedly do - something you have singularly failed to give. Were there something that ki could actually do, then it could be tested either way. By fighting this test you are just suggesting that it is nothing more than a faith with no evidential basis. Does reality exist? Well, there you're getting into deeper philosophical questions. I remember a theory I was looking at recently that we are in fact living in the holographic projection of (I seem to recall) a six-dimensional bubble surface. However that's not what we're discussing - I am just requesting some sort of solid claim from you on what ki is capable of. You say that people can tap into this magical field in order to do things - so what exactly are they supposed to be able to do with it?
Or, to put it another way, I contend that your magical ki field impermeating all living things is actually conscious and chooses to take the form of a purple duck billed platypus, which is invisible to everyone else but me, and speaks to me on a personal level. Now, prove me wrong. Edit - It's called Fred by the way.
How did the discussion go from the benefits of breathing techniques to the depravity of the happy clappers club? In all honesty I think anybody who starts attaching religious connotations to Aikido is losing or has already lost all sense of reality. A study of Ki can be very beneficial in helping people learn to manage stress and such like. But keep your feet on the ground people and your head out of the clouds. The following clip is what happens when you lose grip on reality. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I"]YouTube - Kiai Master vs MMA[/ame]
I have a basic understanding of unicorns, dragons, orcs and pixies from the evidence given in dictionaries and encyclopedias, what's your point exactly? If you cannot demonstrate or use your understanding, then no, you don't have it. If I claim to understand a steam engine, I should be able to design and construct at least a crude one and demonstrate it to you. I can do this fairly easily, given the right materials. Can you say the same about your supposed understanding of ki? No, but it can be used to predict how an object will accelerate under certain forces, how much energy is required to place such an object beyond the reach of our planet's gravitational field, how much protection such an object needs in order to safely make it back down, where to place other objects so that they remain at a relatively stationary point in orbit, how much radioactive material you need for a critical mass, how much energy will be released by such a mass, and many, many other things. Now given your claimed understanding of ki, what exactly can you use your understanding to predict that you will be able to do? Again - does a virus have ki? Still waiting for an answer on that one. Given average crop yields, growth rates, consumption rates, spoilage rates, yep actually you could use maths to give a reasonably good go at saying how many apples there will be tomorrow. You claim that everything living has ki. Whether a virus is alive or not is somewhat under dispute, so if you could kindly tell us whether it has ki that'd be great. Why exactly do I need some pseudo-religious quackery to look around at everything that's alive? It is much, much more wondrous to me to look at living things as the incredibly complex and delicate arrangements of particles that they are rather than bring magical force fields into it. No, I just don't see the need for ki to explain it all. Also, if you've decided that ki means life then fine, but since you have a definition which disagrees with the majority out there you should at least take note that it is the claims about the abilities granted by having ki, or the ability to tap in to your magical field and use it, that I am disputing. Nope - there's no worship involved. They can also actually demonstrate that they are more capable of defending themselves against threats after studying an effective martial art than before. You can't demonstrate anything that ki can do. If that's all you're claiming ki to be then fine, but it's the claims about the abilities that magic supposedly grants that I dispute, not the wishy-washy religious oversoul stuff which I couldn't care less about. How would you suggest it's tested then? What, exactly, can it do? Nope, it means that the most effective way to deal with it is to assume that our senses are not lying to us, but still to check input into those senses with repeated tests and scientific rigour. In that case, I really don't care. You choose to believe in ki, others to believe in souls, others in the great Zanu (or whatever the scientology alien emperor is), that's fine. It's the claims that are made about it that I dispute.
Your version of ki is indefinite and purely conceptual, and is therefore not a part I dispute any more than I dispute any vague ancient philosophy with no basis in rationality or modern evidence. So since by your own definition yours is pretty much without definition, and with nothing to test, it's not you that I'm arguing with. As to making a career out of such testing, biologists still write the occasional grant on defining life. This is where the virus question comes from.
Since this thread is quite similar to the one taking place in the Kuk Sul forum, I have posted a couple of videos with some modern explinations of ki that I feel are worthwhile. I hope that those of you that are following this thread will also take a look at those videos. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97267&page=11
