ki is just energy. If you blend with your opponents attack then you are using their ki. If you drop your centre or use tai sabaki then you are using your ki. Its as simple as that. So with that definition aikido techniques use more ki than aikijujutsu ones.
I'd say you're partly right. Ki isn't just the energy of your physical actions. Ki is also your state of mind. Every thought we have has a direct impact on the physical body. So your state of mind is expressed through the physical state of your body. Therfore when attempting to use techniques that blend with an attackers movements it is important to maintain a focused but calm and relaxed state of mind. The logic here being that if your mind is calm and relaxed then your body will free of tension which can restrict movement. If the mind remains focused then you can still move with purpose and generate power in a technique. This is sometimes called 'soft ki'. However should a practitioner employe a more direct technique then they may do so and still use just as much ki. This is sometimes called 'hard ki'. Where 'soft ki' generally moves in circles (blending actions), hard ki moves in straight lines. An atemi used to strike through a uke would be an example of 'hard ki'. As with 'soft ki' the practitionars state of mind is critical. A half hearted atemi for example just isn't as effective as a focused strike executed with intention to harm. Both Aikido and Aikijujutsu use both types of ki to different degrees. Given that ki is deeply and inseperably connected to ones current state of mind I don't think it is accurate for anybody to say one style employes the use of ki more than the other.
We could spend our entire lives attempting to pre-determine what ki "is", the bottom line is that hard physical and mental training creates focus, determination, tenacity, skill and fitness. I'd rather develop those attributes. Does ki exist ? No doubt it does but like many theoretical, philosophical or perhaps even hypothetical aspects, it may take decades of study before it can be explained or indeed understood to any level, for it to be accredited as a defining part of one's ability, training, skill [whatever]. Regards
Well if you want to follow that line of logic, why bother with Aikido at all? The popular opinion is that it takes roughly a decade to become any good at Aikido. That's not an opinion I subscribe to, but if we're going to invest such a long time in training I think it's well worth our time makeing the effort to broaden our horizons. Now what else should we discuss in a thread about ki?
And your point is ? My horizons are already fairly broad, both from a traditional point of view and those gained from daily interaction with society's convicted criminals.
My point is the subject of Ki covers everything you mentioned in your post. But the tone of your post comes across as discussing ki is a waste of time.
Ahh yes I see what you mean mate... no, that wasn't entirely what I was driving at, although poorly presented I accept Regards.
In my humble opinion, ki has to be experienced, and my experience may well be very much different than another persons.
Ki is great and all, but mushin and zanshin are much more satisfying. Haven't experienced zanshin myself, but according to people who have it is one of the coolest feelings ever.
I need to agree with Aiki-jo in some regards. In my experience of Aikido going back to early 1990s. Ki as utilized by many groups in Aikido are radically different then the methodologies utilized in many of the Chinese arts. I believe Aiki-jo (along with others) stated it was more of a state of mind, which is correct. However that does not preclude some of the aiki schools (at least here in DC metro) from utilizing other aspects of body energy. While it is correct to say all chi/ki are the same it is not correct to state that method of utilizing the energy is. What I mean by that is simply, at least in the system I train, is that physical body energy and manifestation of that energy (think in some terms of jin and it modality of fajin) is a mere step in the progress of training. Aikido “ki” as displayed by Osensei would be more correct to compare to “empty force” rather then fajin long/short jin emanations. A large part of this is from the concept of how combat is/was viewed in the aiki paradigm. That paradigm is “one moment in time” based off the initial first strike of the swordsman. Many of the internal Chinese arts go under the paradigm that you strike/block then possibly shove/pull/bump/throw. While the Aiki paradigm is to throw from the outset or at the initial contact. If you think about the subtly of this different combative viewpoint it can then be understood as to why the ki utilization of Aikido is very different (at least at the start) then Chinese IMA. In the system I study and help teach it very much does go back to what Aiki-Jo said it is a state of mind/being, that in turns allows the varied manifestation of Aiki techniques and ki usage. With that said without the proper fundamentals, focusing on the flowing type ki will get you very little growth unless you study the art for 20 odd years (which btw as I come close to I can say some of the hardest and “secret teaching” techniques like in most good systems are thought first and right in your face – it just takes that long to understand what is being said.) Btw as an fyi – I study at a very small aiki school that is more closed door then not. Meaning we (as a dojo) do not really advertise for students, however if people find us (normally via word of mouth) we readily will accept them if the want to train.. We do not pay for training (sensei has a dojo at his house). The system is very difficult and real with some very advanced aiki if one hangs around long enough to learn it. People who teach in this system of Aikido do so because they are giving back to the community or universe to pay back the gift of training that someone took the time to show them years ago. So fees or dues are not done as it is against the spirit of making a gift of your training and time. - so with this in mind, your Aikido system and mileage may very with the above posting of ki usage in Aikido
Which aspects of body energy are there that can be separated from the utilisation of Ki? A fundamental flaw in your logic is the fact that you agree Ki is a state of mind. Well the mind is always in one state or the other. There is always a balance of tension and relaxation. There is always a balance between a calm mind and a disturbed mind. If there are aspects of body energy free from the utilisation of Ki are we then to believe that Ki is a particular state of mind? There is just one state of mind called Ki? Which one is it? The mistake I think many westerners make when studying Ki is trying to narrow it down to one tangible thing. One item. The subject of Ki covers many things that aren't so easily boxed and labelled. Even the Chinese concept of Ki or Chi can change dramatically depending on which tradition you choose to follow. A high ranking Ki Society Aikido teacher once stated on their web site when asked the question "what is Ki"? "Ki is uncertain". I can't remember who it was but I think he should be given a Phd in rocket science. In martial arts we train the body so that we may educate and discipline the mind while cultivating and tempering the spirit. ... Don't know why I added that last part in. it just sounded good. I must be spending too much time reading koyos posts.
Very Good point aikiwolfie! yet Ki is much more then mind, yet remove the aspect of mind/state (zanshin/mushin et al) trying to utilize ki is like trying to have water move through a crimped hose. Yes the water (ki can flow) through the crimped house but not a smoothly as a non crimped. So to answer your question in part Li and Shi and Ji and Ri concepts do apply here I believe. However to answer your question more fully we would be delving into the realm of philosophy much more rather then trying to look at what can be accomplished results of hard training. I would agree with the Ki society teacher. In fact, my teacher often says that "it does not matter if ki is real or not real." The psychosomatic effect if still very powerful. Aikido done well is very much a chess match. With subtle moves done with the body/mind to be able to "see" what the opponent is going/doing and how to counter it in a split second. We do not believe in reaction but action. To react is not to think but to act is to make choice. Granted reaction is much quicker then conscious action but over years they can become closer in time lapse. Yet that choice allows much more freedom then reaction. So in that aspect yes state of mind training is as vital as ki work and vital to ki work. Can kokyu-ho/ki be utilized under metal/emotional duress? I think so yet not as easily as maintain calmness. To train in waza and body is great but it is a dance. to train mainly in ki makes a group think and unreal waza. training in mind/state aspects alone separates the reality of the event into mental exercises. all three aspect (including emotional control) need to be balanced. So yup I see no disagreement with you. However in a talk about “ki” which we believe to be real yet no real hard scientific data, the use of stick logic might not be totally applicable. just my own views other aikido experience may vary.
In your reply you seem to see Ki as being separate from the person. This isn't my position at all. The Ki Society (which I'm not a part of incidentaly) have a very simple mantra that I think illustrates my position perfectly. "Mind moves body".
"In your reply you seem to see Ki as being separate from the person." Yes and No. Yes that is a part of a person. No in that the philosophical concept it is more then just a single person but more of a unified energy that is a part of all things. So back to the original point. Ki (needs the mind to move the energy) can be used/and is used differently from CIMA to Aikido. "I think illustrates my position perfectly. 'Mind moves body'." Yes I think part of the problem is trying to define ki and how it is used (regardless of the debate if it is real or a bodily phenomena). In my view Ki is utilized in many different ways. (very bad example - Ki is like the ink in a writing tool. The martial art would be the thoughts and word/style of writing. The language that is written is could be the techniques done. The CIMA may like brush with blue ink, WMA might like pencils, Japanese might like pens with red. All are writing tools that need a medium - ki. "all take the mind to move the body" - physical mental unity. However, I think some people are saying ink is ink regardless of the color when the color of ink can influence the meaning of what the thoughts are that are being expressed. This is a true point of view. It is also a correct view to say each ink type and color greatly influence the over expression of what is being written and how it is presented.) It would be like saying Japanese energy paradigm is the same as the charka paradigm. Yes they are different. Yes they are body energy. Yes overlap is present. Yes. Again just my view.
Interesting thread. Can't believe I missed this one for almost two years. If I might comment on just two things... 1. Somebody way back when mentioned Don Angier. Mr. Angier is a wholly legitimate inheritor of a tradition of Aikijujutsu that derives from Daito-ryu. His teacher was the son of Yoshida Kotaro, a kyoju dairi under Takeda Sokaku himself, and reputed to be the man who introduced O Sensei to Sokaku. The tradition he inherited is called Yanagi-ryu. There is a video on Youtube of Mr. Angier; it appears to be from around the late 60s or early 70s. It is a bit over five minutes long, and is most impressive. Contains quite a few sword defenses (sword vs. sword), some unarmed sword defenses, and some hand-to-hand Aikijujutsu. I don't have a link for it, but if you search Youtube under his surname, you should be able to find it. 2. Regarding the comments about "ki" in Daito-ryu... "Ki" by itself seems not to be discussed much in Daito-ryu training. What is discussed at length is aiki. In Daito-ryu, aiki is what distinguishes Jujutsu from Aikijujutsu. As for putting aiki into words... I gave up a long time ago. You have to feel it. You have to learn it from somebody who learned it from somebody who knew it. The more you feel it, the bettter you will become at applying it. There is no substitute for being on the mat.
KI Ken Tai Ichi is a fundanental principle of martial arts . It states ki (intention/fighting spirit) ken (technique) Tai (body movement) must be applied Ichi (as one). When either of these three is given preference the martial art loses balance. Many westerners insist on adding a mystical element to ki. In the original Japanese martial arts of Daito Ryu and Traditional aikido which sprang from Daito Ryu there is no such mysticism or "separation".No emphasis is placed on "developing" ki. This happens as a natural result of sincere training. regards koyo
Well joriki you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. For me there is no problem in defining Ki. If you have an issue in trying to explain Ki which is evident from your post then you're really not sure in your own head what it is you believe in. When I first read the expression "mind moves body". To me it meant everything we do is an expression of our current state of mind. For me our minds our bodies and Ki are inseparable. We can't have one without the other.
Wow Ok Aikiwolfe. If you think I have an issue explaining it then that is your view and I will bow to that. I mean I think it is pretty clear (to me any way) that we are saying much the same thing just from a different view point. so respectfully I think you might want to reread you japanese and chinese philosophy again or spend more time looking in detail into CIMA or take a few levels of SSR/Reiki and then say they are the same... The fact that we talk about ki is an issue as it was pointed out. AIki as both an emanation and principle is a more classic way of talking about it. when we talk about ki and aspect of ki we are fundamentally leaving out ai. Ai (by virtue of shin) must as, I pointed out in other post, must be of the principle of fudotai, fudoshin, fudogan (and no I dont mean physically immovable, or a ridged mind or static emotion - but as in the older symbolic meaning from buddhism) So I will end this by saying aikiwolfe you are correct "for me our minds our bodies and Ki are inseparable. We can't have one without the other". :bang:
