Conversations on MA forums about killer instinct and what training in any MA allows you to do in a real situation. This is not really a discussion I think for this thread in particular it might be worthy of it's own thread. Regards Teddy Bear
Rebel's comment about restricting the opponent' movement also brings to mind the concept of retaining total mobility while using minimum movement. This has an effect on my own manner of training. This and the saying that eventually the "circles" in aikido have no diameter.Oyo waza applied techniques are executed in this manner very lttle movement. regards koyo
Hi Rebel and Koyo Sorry if my post seemed a bit harsh. I think to many people want to compare this against that but we all train to hurt someone else, how we do it doesn't change the intent I don't think any particular style is more effective than an other I just prefer doing it the Aikido way. I think you might find I did mention persona in my reply to you Rebel as well as choice! Some people sadly have no control over their actions and will go all out to do full on harm. Once again a cuddly Teddy Bear Regards Teddy Bear
Thanks for that koyo. Yes, I stuck my foot in my mouth. Was not meant to be that I find Kajukenbo more practical, however. What I meant was that because of being stunned and stunning others often in training and competition, as well as causing pain, it really made me question what it takes to "pull the trigger" when there is another human being involved. I'm sure that is in any martial art. I happened to find it out through Kajukenbo before I realized it was in Aikido too.
DEar REbel Cuddly teddy bear my asss!!!! and you should see his wee brother. To hell with harmony. From now on the moto of the makotokai is no longer "Do not mess with us." it is "Harmonise or die!!!" regards koyo :Angel:
hehehe I must be one of the few people that can say if you don't leave me alone I get my wee brother to you!!! Teddy Bear
To try and get back on topic in this thread with regards to Ki in Aikido. Would everyone agree it is not some mystical and secret power only trainable in a singular fashion but the result of a technique executed, following all the principles of a good martial art eg. posture, timing, distance, angle of entry and intent? Anything I've missed feel free to add in! Regards Teddy Bear
I disagree Teddy. It has very little to do with Timing and Entry. Those are "external" factors, and while they add to the overall effectiveness of the technique they're secondary factors. I'd say that "Ki" has more to do with the "internal" Kamae, or rather the manipulation of said internal Kamae and less to nill of the factors mentioned above. For that matter, if this stuff is part and parcel to Aikido, why is Ikeda Sensei bringing in Ushiro Kenji to teach Kokyu power, saying that effective training is largely lost within Aikido (Read George Ledyard's post up on Aikiweb on the matter)? Likewise, when I was invited to DC along with Mike Sigman by an Aikido group that is attatched to Saotome Sensei, why couldn't anyone do this stuff? Review here at Aikiweb: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=170007&postcount=19 Funny thing was they also agreed that this "skill" went beyond simple posture. THat being said, the internal "posture" is a basic requirement. I'm not saying that "my way" is the "only way." Certainly there's other ways, but just reading most of the posts on this board I'd say you just haven't run into the kind of Skill I'm talking about, or its variations. Breathing: Natural breathing is easy dude. If it were that special, we'd have lots of little Ushiro Kenji's running around knocking people flat on their feet with their little punches. But we don't, plus the little skill he has in this stuff is considered "novel" within the JMA world, even the karate world Wonder why that is?
If you were to agree with me Upyu, I'd be in shock! Using Saotome's American branded form of Aikido as a yard stick might not win over many of your cynics. Since they are far from the most physical out there. My impression of what Saotome does in America is sold to a public that is looking for a more phylosophical approach to Aikido, they don't come across as the schools of hard knocks brigade so I wouldn't put them down as a generalisation of Aikidoka. Also, Ki isn't just an internal manifestation. Teddy Bear
Upyu It saddens me that you choose to speak with such "authority" on aikido when your posts show little or no understanding of the art. Aikido does not choose one principle over the other. The courage to enter when attacked is a manifestation of ki. The sensitivity to control distance is a manifestation of ki. Ki permeates every action in aikido and is not a periferal.Ki is not simply an internal manifestation it can be felt in the strikes. Again you are attempting to discard important areas and bring everything down to kamae. Aikido is the integration of all of these principles to relegate major principles of body movement timing and decisiveness to periferals shows not only a misunderstanding of aikido but a very narrow view of martial arts as a whole. As for never having met men who can demonstrate the exercises you mentioned try Chiba ,Nakazono ,Tamura, Saito I could go on. You may have noticed that I have not commented on your art or even on the other arts that I have trained in choosing only aikido because I have actual experience in the art and am therefore qualified to speak on it. Bears post was ki in AIKIDO. koyo
Tedi: So by that logic, basically you're saying that you guys got the ub3r correct training, and that some aren't subject to it, nor get it. IE it's not necessarily in all aikido. (And that's not a slam dude) Just proves my point that the spread of this kind of information is uneven. Now, you could say that what you're describing is what you were taught as "Ki" in Aikido. But if you goto Abe Sensei's dojo in Kyoto, he'd paint a very different picture. In fact he's pretty explicit about "Ki", being power manifested internally, and from internal manipulation. (And that's after sitting down with the guy and listening to him talk privately...kansai guys tend to be long on words ) I never said that the receiving end couldn't feel it either. That's the whole reason you manipulate the stuff from the inside. It penetrates more, while hiding the point of generation from the guy that's recieving the strike. That's a common thread throughout all arts. Maybe you'll notice i haven't exactly commented on "Aikido" itself either, but rather just body mechanics/internal manipulation FWIW, I agree that the "Ki" paradigm extends beyond simple internal manipulation. Intent, Seishin etc are affected and manipulated as well. But those understandings are a result of training the body "練る” in a certain way. And if the body was trained, it'd be easy to establish that common thread as far as body mechanics go. What's funny is that so far, the only people that get up in a huff are the people that don't understand this stuff. I don't train Chen style, Aikido, or Daitoryu, but I've found several people from each that're ahead of the game in terms of skill that know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and all agree that there is a common base Besides which this stuff is old, it doesn't extend to just Aikido, nor did Ueshiba just create it out of thin air. To say that it's exclusive to "Aikido" is kind of presumptious I think.
I could go along with that. I do hold deeper beliefs that relate more to everyday life but still have relevance to martial arts. But they certainly aren't mystical in anyway. Upyu if ki is purely internal, then how do we express or manifest that ki in practical technique? Did all this body connection stuff suddenly become redundant over night? Are we now throwing people without laying a hand on them? Your insides are directly connected to your outsides. It would seem you're disagreeing for the sake of it.
I'd agree with that, they aren't mystical at all. Are they complex skills? Yes. Do they affect the psyche/intent? Sure. Let's see if I can't be clearer. When I say internal, I mean that the physical movement can't be seen outside. For starters lets take away all other factors, timing, angles, footwork etc. If I place my hand on your chest, and without any visible movement of my shoulder or body, capture your center so that a) you feel it, b) you're already off balance. (There's several ways to do this through internal manipulation.) This is what I was implying in the Kuzushi thread, that the Kuzushi is a result of the body skills. As soon as you simply touch the guy he should be off balance. If he grabs you using strength, it only magnifies the effect. And there's nothing mystical about this either.
Hi Bear re your post 228. The basics of the principle are that we should assert control in general and over the centreline in particular denying the attacker freedom of movement and choice of target.While we ourself are " filled with the intention to strike." not a particular strike simply the intention to take advantage of any suki (opening) With the attacker effectively limited in his choices we have begun to control him. Below although Derek seams to be the agressor and moving quite powerfully. I have control of the kensen (line of the sword) Should he continue in his movement he shall be thrust. You and I had begun to look at this at the last seminar. In truth the entire seminar could have been used to study this basic principle. Maybe next time. It is advanced use of this principle which enables us to often correctly assess what the attacker's next move may be.Derek would have to cut upward or raise the sword to protect his centre line.(A cut or thrust at my leg would be too late) regards koyo
Hi Bear As you say this is an advanced principle. Below the same tactic used against Gerry Kincaid 6th dan kendo. His kamae has NOT been broken. He is about to use kessa giri and irrimi to "take back" the control of the kensen causing me to move to protect my centreline.It is the "unshakeable" internal kamae that protects the external kamae.At a high level it is near impossible to break this kamae.Stalemate. regards koyo
When did I ever deride Koyo?? As far as deriding Shihan? Did I "deride" anyone specifically? You're taking it too personal, chill dude The waza or expression may differ, but the baseline skills I'm talking about aren't, at least with regard to the physical Ki skills. I've yet to see a useful contribuation from you Bear. Man some of the guys in here...makes it feel like Aikiweb circa 2 years ago ^^;
Nope, no derision there. Again, no derision there? I think you should read what you write before posting. Also you continually refuse to document your training experience. I have asked several times. How long have you studied Aikido? The Bear.
Upyu, you seem to consistantly miss the point that most folk are saying here. We do not really care for the way you achieve your results the reason we train in Aikido is because of the principles and training methods used. These we find enjoyable and fun to do. For some who go on to excel they produce fantastic results. Take these principles and training methods away and we would go and find something else to do. We do Aikido that's it! We have not questioned your skill or ability at what you do but you seem set on questioning ours, if that isn't insulting I don't know what is! Regards Teddy Bear
Where do I deride Aikido Bear? I derided that individual (who was a really nice guy btw, but as skills were...they just weren't there), and other "people" that weren't up to snuff. It was simply an example that spending xxx years of dedicated training doesn't necessarily mean that you "get" certain skills. Hell, I could give the same examples for a lot of CMA artists out there, or Koryu. I will contend that some teachers with the goods aren't being open about some of the stuff,(which, considering the asian mindset isn't totally out of the question), or if they are teaching it, aren't doing such a good job in transmitting it. There's plenty of people that have met me Bear, go do a search on E-budo and Aikiweb for Akuzawa and "Rob." You'll find all you need to know there. Here, I'll even kickstart it and provide you one of the theads http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11923
