I really feel the thread is doing the revolving door trick here. I think we can all agree there is definately more than one way to achieve our goals and that the nature of good Ki/Chi can also be developed in different ways. The only main contention I have is Upyo appears to think unless we train or experience the development of our skills and explain it in a fashion he wants to hear then we must all be ignorant and unskilled. Aikido is my favourite art to participate in because of the style of practice and for most of the time you and your partner go on the same journey of discovery. Even when you train with individuals you might not count as a friend it still develops a bond through respect for going through the same experiences. So, for ME taking away the partner aspect of Aikido is like taking the chocolate flavouring out of my ice cream. This to me only leaves a question for Upyo, What do you hope to achieve by posting and asking questions on the Aikido forum? You get answers but not in a format you like, what is being said is why Aikidoka do aikido and not something else. Maybe you should come along and experience it for a period then you'd get the answers your looking for. Regards Teddy Bear ps. Upyu if natural breathing is so simple why is it that most adults don't do it???
KI in aikido is not mystical to me. A good technique uses the powerful katachi kamae (body attitude) Taisabaki (body alignment) and kokoro kamae (fighting spirit) All three plus pragmatic technique result in a powerfull technique. At a high level these beimg kokyu nage. Having spoken at length about katachi kamae. I ask this question using kokoro kamae can you consistantly "sense" someone's intention to attack and pre-empt that attack with one of your own. In swordsmanship this is called debana waza. Can you move during an attack so as to be always just out of reach or suddenly so close that no opening is offered to the opponent. An important aspect of martial arts is the ability to minimise the "lapse" between seeing an opening appearing and moving decisively on that instant. All of these principles are related to ki in aikido. your thoughts?? Koyo Cutting though his intention to strike.
Hi koyo this reminds me some of a seminar i attended. One of the three arts that day was aikido. The instructor gave the analogy of someone throwing a ball and someone catching a ball.. Do you think that relates at all to the above? I was pretty new to the whole tai chi/ aiki thing (tai chi and Karate were the other arts that day). the ball thing stuck in my mind.. Regards.
Hi Koyo, hmmmmm, I am unsure whether you can constantly sense someone's intention to attack. I certainly can't, but that doesn't mean the others can't. I guess it is part your own ability vs. the ability of your opponent to hide their intentions. Is there a point where both could be so skilled as to be unable to hide anything from each other, I don't honestly know. It is the same with movement. Theoretically an equally skilled opponent would sense your intent and move to counter your move. These a difficult questions and I'm afraid beyond my ability to answer conclusively. The Bear.
Hi c;oudhands Not eactly sure what you mean by your question. My immediste thought is you can catch the ball you can strike it out of the air or you can strike him before he throws the ball all apsects of sen timing. We would often get such demonstrations my favourite being throwing a ball at the instructor who let it bounce of of his chest declaring this is good kamae. Then he took off his jacket held it to the side again I threw the ball it hit the jacket and was enveloped by it and fell to the floor. "This is good aikido!!" regards koyo
Kokoro kamae should be considered by all as one of the corner stones of martial ability no matter the art. Sadly, it is not something that can be taught in my experience it can only be learned. In that I mean the individual has to develop their own way of achieving it. From my own personal experiences I have had the fortune to train with some fine exponents of Aikido and their kokoro kamae appears to be the trigger that allows the whole thing to look that simple to them. It is something that needs to be worked on, to build consistancy especially when fatigued towards the end of a gruelling class. I have trained with two experienced MA's, one from Aikido and one from Tai Chi who are very skilled technically in their arts but both have no Kokoro kamae and once out with normal practise drills and techniques they become like bunnies in front of headlights. Regards Teddy Bear
Hi Bear I did say consistantly rather than constantly for as you say if the skill level is higher then it is most difficult when someone can go from zero to explode in an instant. I find it is to do with kokoro kamae and viewing the attacker as a whole. If the mind is engaged in "thinking" what MAY happen then it is at a disadvantage. However if one can allow the mind to remain calm one can often see clearly what is enfolding. Another aspect taken from swordsmanship is that the instant you face an opponent you are filled with the intention to cut rather than to engage in a confrontation so the kokoro kamae is constantly looking for openings rather than looking for possible attacks from the opponent.Showing a superior fighting spirit. In martial arts there is the saying assert control in general but over the centreline in particular. Waza okurosu means kill the technique (cutting it aside atc) Tai okurosu kill the man (attack all openings physical or mental) Ki okurosu kill the spirit (dominate the attacker through a stronger fighting spirit) The post about the ball in answer to cloudhands question speaks of this also. regards koyo
Hi Koyo, Thanks. I think the question you have posed can only truthfully be answered by a very small number of people who have trained to a high level. I may be able at times "feel" the rising intentions and from your training I always try to control the centre line. My fighting spirit, that is an issue I struggle with. Being a bigger than average bear I spend my life having to extert extreme control. I guess a way to describe it is a world made from cardboard. If I forget myself and pull too hard or move too quickly things/people tend to break. This affects my fighting spirit, I worry constantly that in confrontation I would instinctively keep a level of restraint and that could be fatal. The Bear.
Like I said it was 5am. duly noted and edited No you keep calling it a "litmus" test. A litmus test gives you a simple true or false answer. Meaning the test is either reliable or it isn't. In this case it isn't. These tests are easily faked. They prove nothing.
If I didn't know better I'd say you were a Ki Aikido instructor (please don't hit me ). But I guess that just goes to show there are other ways to train. More than one way to skin a cat.
Hello Bear, What you describe, I don't think it is unique in martial arts. It is something called killer instinct by many. I have been in a Muay Thai match against someone less than half my age, although we were same weight class he was taller and thinner. I stunned him a few times, but each time his face turned pale, I could not pull the trigger and finish him off. It was like hitting a baby, I did not want to do it. So I held back. I've had other opponents and unknown to me at the time, people have come tell me afterwards that I was merciful to the opponent. Believe me, I know I did not finish them off when I could, but I did not think others saw this too. I'm the opposite than you Bear, I'm a small guy used to hitting big guys hard, but when they are my size or smaller, I think I feel as you do. Only you don't have bigger guys to train with often I take it. How did I deal with this? Well first I realized that it wasn't in me to just hurt people... I had to accept that I was not the killer. Then I worked on building up my killer instinct, now when I see an opening, I'm like a dog on a bone, I don't give it up, I take it right way and don't let go. I don't think of the enemy as a person, they are the enemy. Cruel as it may seem to some, no one is a person anymore to me, they are just the enemy. To make them a person means I must question my own instinct as I am not the killer, remember. However, the enemy is not a person. What did this do for me? It allowed me to have choice. If I did not finish someone off, then it was my choice to do so. No longer was I a slave to my internal conflicts between instinct and higher levels of thinking. I allowed my instinct to do what it must, I trust my intuition, but it is my choice to finish someone off. Martial Arts such as Kajukenbo are good at learning this stuff. More so than Aikido, IMHO. The reason is that we learn many ways to hurt someone, and how easy it is to be hurt. We are forced to learn severe techniques and ones that are less severe, this gives us choice... realizing that someone will be hurt, we control the damage done. Now the key to this in training is to know what someone can take. Just a suggestion, if you find some to train with that can take your power Bear, then train them how to defend themselves against it. In that manner the technique you do can be done with more power, because they can take it. Maybe they can only take three times doing something at that intensity, then they must take a break... better learning from three times good than a hundred times holding back. Hope this information is of value to you.
If you're training with someone of lesser experience or ability than yourself, I've always found it better to make them work constantly without breaks rather than hammer them a few times and take five. Just my personal experience.
Nothing wrong with that. However, lesser experience doesn't mean a whole lot. Someone could be lesser experience but still be a black belt. It is all relative to whether they can take the damage or not, I guess it is how good their ukemi skills are. The point I was addressing however, was the point where instinct takes over. The majority of my training consists of three modes: 1. Full speed - this is instinctive and the techniques will hurt someone if they cannot take the technique. Control is there to prevent serious injury in training, but otherwise it is not held back. This can only be done a few times as the risk is great over time that serious injury will occur. Edit: also their is a point where someone might have to "bail out" to protect each other in training. It is the conscious decision whether to finish them off or let them go (give them a way out). This type of training usually can only be done between people that have known each other for a long time and trained to take it. 2. Full speed but limited techinique - techniques are limited to safer ones. Sparring, rolling, etc. 3. Half-speed or slower speed - Things are slowed down to just above comfort level, the idea is to learn technique, etc. The point is to not hardwire bad habits into your seated instincts. When you go full speed, you don't want pulled punches in a life or death situation and at the same time you don't want to seriously hurt someone if you can use a lesser amount of force. There are many ways to train this... my suggestions are just what has been working for me.
Rebel The measure of a true martial artists is the ability to kill and choosing not to. Bear The kokoro kamae allows extremes of timing and decisiveness but the physical application may be mitigated to the circumstance. Wolfie The difference being rather than demand harmony of movement we deny the attacker freedom of movement. regards koyo
Well since I have nothing more to add to that I'll just have to say you're plain wrong just because I said so
Nicely put Koyo. My issue was that it was not my choice before. My instincts did not allow me to finish off an opponent because of internal conflict. I lacked killer instinct. Once I accepted that I lacked killer instinct and worked to gain more understanding of it, then I was able to finish off opponents, however, I had the conscious choice not to. This also gave me choice of how to finish because I was not missing opportunies as much. I could employ application mitatgated to the circumstance, at least more so than before. To the question about kokoro kamae, to me there are a few key components that should be explored: 1) related to "killer instinct" (see an opening and go for the throat) 2) related to "fighting spirit" (never give up) 3) related to "conscious choice" (do you have conscious control of the level of force used) The last one is important because I think some get a false sense of what control they actually have to do damage... many internal conflicts and habits can be developed from training as well as life's experiences. Just my opinion. And Woofie, I respect your thoughts, even if we disagree...
Koyo used your ninja skills to sneak in another comment. :woo: Anyway, I was thinking the same thing. Limit the number of things the attacker can do. Rather in reality, we cannot limit them completely, all we can do is make them have to do much more work to do somethings. e.g. if I move to the attacker's left, this makes him have to work more to attack me using his right. If I move forward towards them, this can make them work harder to move forward, as they may feel jammed and feel the compulsion to collapse or move away.
Hi Rebel I thought from the amount of time you spent posting on the Aikido forum you might have understood the nature of the training practices in Aikido. It is just like every other MA, it can be used to cause severe damage or not. When we train we do not intend to damage our uke as we would quickly run out of uke's and then there would be no more training. As for what you call killer instinct that is down to individual choice and/or persona that decides whether or not to inflict real harm to someone. The "this art versus that art" nonsense does not wash. Intent and level of harm is down to the individual not the art they study, this is another way people pass their responsibilty for themselves and their actions to someone or something else. Regards Teddy Bear
Ah, sorry if what I wrote was inappropriate. I meant no disrespect to Aikido or any art. I have seen those with what I call killer instinct. It isn't as simple as having a choice. They are by instinct going to kill, it is a conscious decision they make not to kill. It is more of a curse than a blessing, but it makes them very effective in the martial sense. Many that train view the world differently, to them it is a conscious decision to kill and an instinct not to kill. This to me is not good, not that life is not precious but because I have found that instinct can prevent you from "pulling the trigger." By not pulling the trigger, opportunity is lost. Once you can pull the trigger, then it is a matter of mitagating the application to the situation much as koyo posted. The reason I believe, and this is my opinion, that Aikido is not as good at learning such lessons comes down to the principles that are focused on. The first principles in Kajukenbo besides "do not get hit" is that we must stun the opponent. This is the same as in Aikido when we talk about the need to unbalance an opponent. Stun is the same as unbalance, so depending on what is to be done next, both are good. However, where as we do train to unbalance before lock or takedown, we also are constantly training to stun each other. Aikido has the stun concept but it was not emphasized much in my Aikido training even though we did use atemi.
I think you are being a little harsh on Rebel Teddy bear I have always found his posts most informative and the thought that he finds kajukenbo more practical or whatever than aikido is entirly acceptable to me as I am sure that he would accept that my opinion is that traditional aikido is the more effective simply because this is the art that I study. regards koyo
