Upyu i think that you read our posts with the agenda of lets find something to disagree with. Ueshiba developing his art but not imparting it to his deshi is quite unbelievable. In his later life he trained almost exclusively with Saito shihan in Iwama who assisted him in his final realisation of aikido.. Saito clearly stated at all of his seminars this is what O Sensei taught. I trained under Saito shihan and he was perhaps the most approachable of all the shihan I have trained under. There are NO secrets other than constant sincere hard training. A few students were chosen to be national coaches and instructors. They received "different" instruction from the others. The difference was IT WAS HARDER. No secrets. Secrets are for the ninjas. saito shihan presenting me with mokuroku aiki weapons. (no secrets on the scroll)
Hi sakumeikan, I'm afriad I decided to give my answer to Koyo in private. I keep promising myself a cushy time, but as soon as I walk in the door I get carried away. I think it would be the same with dominoes. The Bear.
A long statement, but proves nothing. Next you'll start telling us about the power of empty force. The Bear.
In ten years of Ki Aikido practice I've never seen it happen in an unstructured environment. Those tests do have a purpose. But that purpose isn't to prove the mystical properties of Ki. Those tests exist to help students develop a calm mind. To demonstrate weaknesses in posture and to show students how little effort is actually needed to move someone. More to the point. They are ridiculously easy to fake. Which is why they prove nothing. I can't access Aikiweb. I get a 403 forbidden error every time. When you were pushing, did you use all the strength in your arms. The reason I ask is because when people do this, particuarly beginners, they tend to tense up both their biceps and triceps. This locks up your arms and stops you from pushing. However you still feel like you're giving all you can. It even looks like you're trying hard. Now why would leaning in do anything? In that case all the testee has to do is support your weight. Which is easily done without giving anything away. It also redirects most of your pushing power up wards instead of through the person you want to push. Which is why you end up pushing yourself away. You can't use your back foot because you don't have one. But you can still use your feet and the extender muscles in your shins to hold you steady. Ever so slightly bent knees also make all the difference. The "masters" legs will be bent during these tests. The beginners will almost always be straight and tense. So the "master" can absorb a lot more push than the beginner. What you need to realise is that a very slight shift in posture can completely change the outcome of these tests. They do hold valuable lessons and insights. But they aren't the smoking gun Upyu would have us believe them to be.
Actually, he keeps his legs straight/knees straight on purpose (the instructor). Bending the knees turns the exercise into something else entirely. His favorite parlor trick is to have someone stand in a bow stance, then push as hard as they can and try to push him over (there are physical limitations, the 240lb aussie boxer was really pushing it, lol) but, again it's just demonstrating a principle, nothing more. Difference is, for us it doesn't end as just a demo, it's the basis for penetrating no wind up strikes that can be used in standup, on the ground or anywhere.
Nah dude, you raise some valid points. One thing I want to make clear, especially to you, was that the examples given are things that should be easy to do with someone with decent internal skills. Nothing more nothing less. Application of those skills is a different matter. But if I say, well can you do this and this and this to person A, then assuming he does have those skills, he should be able to go, oh yea, sure, and proceed to describe how he does it. It's just a litmus test. Fighting is something else, but you can use modifications of those exercises to progress to application in free fighting situations. I'd have to show you hands on. The guys I work out with are far from compliant (granted though, it's still mainly within the sports mma context). FWIW
There was an interesting article up on Aikido Journal by Ellis Amdur entitled "Hidden in Plain Sight" that discussed the whole "secrets" thing, and what Ueshibas so called "ace in the hole" was. It was followed by a lot of heated debate, but some of the information that came out of it was interesting, you may want to give it a read: http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045
Hidden in plain sight. I learned more of value about aikido as uke to numerous shihan. Having been told the angle to enter the direction of the kuzushi etc. The limitations of this knowledge quickly becomes apparent when you are caused to "feel" the instant of imbalance the timing of that imbalance and the power behind the execution of the technique. One realises they are NEVER exactly the same.During the ukemi I was learning the execution of the technique "internally" . Timing and distances are more "internal" than external. They are training of the senses. Throughout the executiion of ANY tachnique ANY principle retention of the kamae is demanded (internal training?) Therefor kamae is being trained constantly in every class even when concentraing for that class on timing. distancing,technique etc ALL demand proper kamae. I have been told that all that you need to study aikido shall be shown in the first few months (hidden in plain sight) The first time you see a master execute a near perfect technique. The "secrets" of those techniques shall remain so until you discover them for yourself. THey cannot be withheld by another who has some "mystical" quality to them.They will reveal themself eventually and there is nothing mystical in that. The throw below looks like I am just standing there, simply cut his attack to a kuzushi and rapped the side of his head from my "immovable" kamae. Any kind of secrets would be immediately obvious to anyone who understands timing. hip rotation and kuzushi. regards koyo
I would have to see that in order to believe it. How deep or shallow is the bow? As for demos. As I've already said they are not the appropriate forum for these tests. So for me they begin and end as exercises to aid a students development. Demos shouldn't even enter the equation.
To test your self / art. It is best not to attempt this within your own environment. Cross train by going into different environments.There you shall find the true measure of your art. I am fortunate to have friends who are high grades in various martial arts and if you approach them with respect much will be learned. Koyo
My interpretation of this is that people can see something with their eyes but their mind and body might not comprehend it the same as someone with different or more experience. For instance, two people are observed fighting on the ground. To many it might appear they are wrestling. However, some with more experience will recognize techniques. Even more, some will see the use of principles... and even some will "see" the timing and control of distance... All these things are there to see but many do not understand them, therefore they are hidden. They are hidden because what we see is just the tip of the iceberg of what is really going on, the rest is like the part of the iceberg that is below the water... it is hidden. Only through our own knowledge and experience can be fill in the gaps and see what is hidden. When it comes to the idea of KI or CHI or anything that is uncertain, it is easy to come under the way of thinking that we want it all broken down, simplified and understandable. For instance, KI is fighting spirit, KI is only leverage, timing, body skills, physics... or KI is breathing. We think we have figured it all out because that is what we have found to be true through our own experiences. We are skeptical of what others say because what they see is different than what we see. We should never forget however, that what we and others "see" changes over time as our own knowledge and training changes. We are NOT ourselves on this forum but we are who we are only in a particular state in time. This is not our true selves, we are merely the ambassadors of ourselves. I think we can take things too personally on this forum... we are ambassadors, nothing more. Maybe try seeing what life is like through someone else's eyes and give them a taste of what it is like to see things though our own eyes.
HI REbel Good post as always. I never post with the attitude THIS is the only way simply this is MY was and hope that some will find benefit in it. Likewise often I shall take what is said in a post to the next training session and experience it then post my findings. Personally I NEVER take it personally. regards koyo
Well most people seem to consider leaning in, to be how they put more bodyweight into the push. How does it bring the power upwards if I am pushing forwards? Yeah thats what I tought too, but the legs were straight, but not locked. I turned out to be the one with bent legs first time I did it. Once I straightened out, of course I could generate even less power. I found what did work better with regards to the legs, was to concentrate on making an arch, somewhat simliar to how I learned sanchin years ago,but without the muscular tension, but still feeling the torque. It worked, better, but still not quite good enough. I think the tests are useful if you want to illustrate a principle, but even more useful if you use them as a gauge to see how you are progessing.
Well when you lean in you effectively become a human flying-buttress. The whole point of a flying-buttress is to redirect energy and not to deliver it. While the pusher will feel they have a better purchase for pushing. They don't. Energy from the push is absorbed through posture, redirected up wards or if you're leaning enough, lost at the back as you begin to slip. To get the most effective push you need to stay as upright as possible. ^Not the best explanation. But it's the best i can do at 5am. I'll bet the students pushing that hardest were at a 45 degree angle. I'll also guarantee the instructors legs weren't as straight as average Joe's legs. It's a learning curve. When the legs become totally straight (as in locked) you must compensate some how. Say by bowing. The test is pasted by manipulating posture. And as you seem to have figured out relaxing without being dead is key to achieving the correct posture. I too think there are valuable lessons in these tests. They're just not the smoking gun some people would have us believe they are.
Think you meant "relaxing without being dead." I'd partially agree with the fact that when the legs become totally straight you have to compensate somehow...but it's not be bowing. There's a definite movement of the upper cross, harmonized with the tanden, and tailbone area. It's almost like you "catch" the tension in the calves so that it's directed straight down into the heels. Regardless, it's easy to do it to someone that doesn't understand correct posture, or have whole body connection. Things get interseting when someone is connected. You can generate a lot of power from that posture from a punch that looks like you just stuck the arm out... Understanding how the arm connects to the spine is a key principle in this exercise. Btw, I never said it was a "smoking" gun, but I've met a lot of people that nodded their head saying "yup yup", but then when put to the test they couldn't do jack That includes one Japanese Aikido dude that got to train with Ueshiba back in the day, and still practices Aikido to this day
My main problem with these statement is you constant assumption that the tests actually mean something. Does failing your test mean the person is a bad martial artist? Does passing your test mean the person is a good martial artist? Your entire argument is based on the value of the test. If the test is shown even once to be pointless then your arguement becomes pointless. So if some one who passes your test is defeated by someone who failed your test then your test becomes meaningless. Which I can predict has a high probability of happening. It depends on your goal, if you desire to become a master of the tests then you are very on your way to achieving that goal but it is not the goal of most of us here on the forum. The Bear.
Honesty over modesty every time. I have a strong kamae. I can duplicate those tests.I would pass.However by using timing,distancing and kuzushi I can not only thow back an attacker I can uproot him and take both of his feet of the ground and throw him much more effectively than simply pushing him back. Furthermore I can unbalance and throw people who I could not push back simply because of their strength height or weight. Holding my ground is of little value compared to free mobility. This is after all aikido we are speaking of. regards koyo
Dude, I'm not saying its the be all end all, but, if you have a modiocum of internal skill it should be a cake walk. (And there are several different ways to achieve that exercise within the internal context). I agree with Koyo, I wouldn't "hold" my ground either. The static exercises are not techniques. They're simply litmus tests to see whether someone's body can do one thing or another. Whether you can fight with it is a different story. I regurlary test this stuff against shoot fighters that don't exactly play nice. Nothing goes text book fashion. MMA guys probably know this best I take my fair share of bumps and bruises too. Making the skill work for you in a "live" environment is, like I said before a seperate issue. If you don't see a use for it, and simply think it's a static drill that has no use in a live environment...well I'd venture to say that you just haven't figured out how to make it work. If this stuff were simply an "ooh ahh" parlor trick that had no practical useage whatsoever I'd have abandoned it a long time ago
My problem isn't that you apply these "internal" skills (the worse conceptual description ever, since can you show me an external muscle, tendon or nerve). If it work for you, I am pleased. However, your manner on the forum is to patronise skilled practicioners and mysticise what is effectively a method of training the body for efficient transfer of force which in one way or another every martial arts does. You have consistently used allusion to "secret" ways and derided anyone who has stated that hard dedicated training is the only "secret". We are not hostile to the notion of increase in performance from proper posture. In fact koyo constantly, in training, comments on correct posture. However, we are hostile when someone attempts push their own method as the ONLY true method and it was a secret method only revealed to a few (of which you being one). I am not a child, nor am I naive, untravelled or inexperienced. If you have a good idea I am willing to hear it. Describe what you achieved and how you achieved it and I will listen. Silly placed ,meaningless semi-mystical phrases and "you wouldn't understand"s, I don't need to hear. The Bear.
