Kenjutsu in London

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Nykout, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. Nykout

    Nykout Valued Member

    Thanks, I'll be sure to check some FMA schools there.
    I never actually paid attention to FMA footwork, but if you say it's similiar to Capoeira's then I have to get more into details. The first thing that I learned about Capoeira's footwork is that it's very similiar to boxing, in the sense that ginga is essentialy an elongated version of the boxing leg swap (I don't know the proper term).
     
  2. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    I also didn't read your reply to ap Oweyn as anything more than that of you being defensive towards Steve, so don't worry too much.
     
  3. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Yep. Exactly. Can't be faulted for that.
     
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Set Ryan on him! ;)
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    The inside triangle in FMA is similar as well.
     
  6. Heraclius

    Heraclius BASILEVS Supporter

    Although FMA and HEMA are also great suggestions, I will point out that the battodo mentioned on the first page us not a koryu, and might also be suitable for you.
     
  7. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Age usually tends to out in the end. :)
     
  8. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    I will attempt to clarify just what has gotten people up in arms over what you have been suggesting.

    I have been studying Japanese sword arts for over 20 years, and I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface. As a new student to the Japanese sword arts, you'll need to be taught how to stand properly, how to hold and swing a sword properly, and how to move and breathe properly. None of these things are done in a "natural" manner where the sword is concerned. In order to learn these things, your instructor (whoever it is) will need to spend a lot of time working with you and training you (especially so for the first couple of years as it takes a while to learn to fix your own problems.).

    So, as the student (you) learns more and advances, the instructor eventually gets payback for all of the work he's put into the student He gets paid back by having someone advanced enough for the instructor to be able to practice with and improve himself. He gets paid back by having someone advanced enough to take over training others while the instructor works on his own practice with the senior most students. He gets paid back by having someone help him with running the dojo and taking care of demonstrations and such. He gets paid back by having people go to Japan with him and eventually get permission from the hombu to pass on the training themselves so the ryu stays alive.

    What you are proposing is that someone spend a lot of time and effort teaching you the rudiments of the Japanese sword while getting nothing back in return. If anyone were to actually teach koryu sword arts as a business, that might be an acceptable situation as you would be supporting your instructor with your money. However, I know of no one that actually makes any money from the koryu arts. Mostly we just hope to not lose money too quickly, and have enough people to be able to practice with.

    Given that fact, you are not just trying to get something for nothing, you are trying to get someone to put in a lot of effort for you while giving nothing at all in return.

    THAT is why you've managed to irritate anyone connected with the koryu.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
  9. Nykout

    Nykout Valued Member

    Thank you for explaining.
    Every martial art school that I have visited at least once (and there were quite a bit of them) offered classes not for free, i.e. monthly fee had to be paid regularly, and that money was in exchange for the classes and instructor knowledge. That money helped the instructor have a steady job, as well as maintain the dojo/gym.

    From the perspective of a Koryu school, where it is all for the sake of preserving the tradtion, and the instructor's knowledge is exchanged for your contribution to the art, it obviously is a selfish move trying to get as much as you can, while giving nothing back.
    Thing is, even though I have read some articles about Koryu (a lot of them from S.Delanay's website), I have not stumbled upon this kind of information, that all classes are held for free and thus you should feel obliged to pay back by giving yourself to the art.
    Thank you again for your explanation pgsmith.

    Now I understand that this might be extremely obvious for all Koryu practicioners, and my posts might have irritated them, but it is the art practitioners' responsibility to point out my mistakes so I even have a chance to correct those errors, in order not to create a notion of them being cavalier and overbearing.
    I did not mean any disrespect, and I can assure you that I am always trying to come to everything with understanding, but I made one mistake which was explained only after a few weeks.
    What I got was mockery from Dean Winchester (apart from his previous posts, which were helpful), and ironic answer of "sigh, I'm getting too old for this". I don't want to be impolite here, but I did not feel like those were the comments of real Koryu practicioners, who want to preserve the tradition of Japanese arts.

    Just to finish, it's not only about Koryu and other martial arts, but in all aspects of life people should help others understand their mistakes, not dwell on them.

    Also what exactly did you mean by "Age usually tends to out in the end."? I am not hiding anything here, nor pretending to be anything that I'm not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Classes won't be free, class fees pay for overheads, not for instruction.
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Can't see where I mocked you to be honest Nykout.

    I can have a go if you want though?


    As for our comments reflecting that of "real" practitioners, what makes you think people have to pander to you?

    Nothing that was said was particularly impolite. You've been pointed in the right direction but you aren't owed anything, it's down to you to show that you can be an asset.

    As for class fees well of course they are needed, everything from rent to equipment and insurance costs.

    The difference is that you walk into a McDojo and they will do whatever they can to sign you up and get you on board, with these places you aren't guaranteed you will be taken on.

    In short when it comes to koryu it's not about you.

    http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html
     
  12. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Since I've taken on the job of instructing (darn Boy Scouts!) I am going to do something that I normally try to avoid as it's irritating to me. I'm going to parse your questions and attempt to answer individually.

    You won't find a koryu dojo offering classes for free either, since renting practice space and keeping up a dojo costs money. However, as I said earlier, the koryu don't lend themselves to making money. Every koryu practitioner I know either has a job and teaches in their spare time, or is retired.

    This is absolutely incorrect. It is the practitioner's responsibility to practice diligently and learn the art exactly as the head of their school dictates in order to accurately pass the art on to future generations. We don't really care much if you think we're cavalier or overbearing, it doesn't bother us in the least.

    You see, your understanding comes from movies and your own desires, not from reality. What you got is pretty much spot-on for most of the koryu practitioners with which I am familiar. They were actually a bit nicer than I've heard in person since MAP likes to try and maintain a friendly atmosphere. The Japanese would have simply smiled and ignored you, but us westerners tend to be a bit more interactive. :)

    These two are closely related, so I'll answer them together. Why would you think that people should help others understand their mistakes? Why should it be other people's responsibility to point out your mistakes and help you correct them? Why is it not your responsibility to attempt to understand as much as possible in order to avoid mistakes? Why would you depend on others to think for you? Why should other people spend their precious time (of which we have too little already) to try and improve other people rather than improving ourselves?

    This attitude is an indicator of those that have grown up with the internet. They tend to expect others to tell them what they wish to know rather than research and discover facts for themselves. In this way I knew you were rather young based upon your both your questions and responses.

    I'm not trying to deride you or put you down in any way, I am simply trying to explain why you didn't get the response you were hoping for.

    Good luck in whatever you decide to pursue.
     
  13. Nykout

    Nykout Valued Member

    I think I should explain the issue more thoroughly, since there might have been a slight misunderstanding between us.

    First of all, I just said that I got a notion from reading the comments, not that I think that you really are cavalier and overbearing. I am sure you are wiser and more experienced than me.

    I did not mean that other people should do the thinking for me, and I am supposed to remain passive. I am always trying to observe, discover and understand everything that I come across by myself. Sometimes though, when I can't figure something on my own (even though I've tried), I need advice from others. You say that we should not waste our time trying to improve other people. I agree. But it's not about directly improving other people (thus, stripping them from the chance to learn something by themselves), but it's about showing the right direction.

    I come from a country where hubris, lack of communication and the unwillingness to show others where their mistakes are, is the source of all hate and contempt. As I said, not holding their hands and leading them to the truth, but showing them the way.

    Not from movies, not from reality, but from a handful of Koryu articles, which, taking into account the fact how deep Koryu is, is a close to no knowledge. Also from, how you said it, my own desires.

    Thank you, I really appreciate that you have given me that advice and pointed out my mistake.

    Thanks, good luck as well.
     
  14. Nykout

    Nykout Valued Member


    I understand that you felt irritated by my previous comments, because I lacked knowledge, but that's why I was the one asking on this thread, not answering. I also apologised later.
    I wasn't "pretending" anything, so your comment of "It seems all pretence of manners has gone on the part of Nykout", was uncalled for, and confusing for me. Still, when I asked what was your point and was ready to sincerely apologise for my mistakes, you decided to remain silent. Of course, you weren't by any means obliged to answer my comment, but if I was in such a situation I would answer as soon as possible in order to dispel any doubts.

    I understand that you can be rejected by a Koryu school, but are all schools that welcome everybody a McDojo in your eyes?
     
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Not at all.

    A McDojo is a commercial Dojo, where profit is a major concern not the only concern but it is a driving factor. That is why student turnover can be so high.

    Now that's not saying they are bad, just that they have different considerations to other Dojo. I know of an excellent commercial Dojo, I'd be hesitant to call it a McDojo because of the negative connotations surrounding the word but it's a first class place. However you couldn't run a koryu dojo in the same manner.
     
  16. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    If you would be able to practice for a long time, I'd advice for koryu over ninjutsu any time (probably anything over ninjutsu). But if you are able to put in only two years, I would start with something that you could continue with after those two years. As others have said, only two year would be a waste of time for your teacher(s) and yourself.

    If sword is your interest, then HEMA (if I understood that you also had that option other places) seems like the preferable choice here.
     
  17. Nykout

    Nykout Valued Member

    Yes, HEMA or FMA currently seem to be the best bets. I will check out the Bujinkan schools as well though.
    Just curious, why would you advice probably anything over Ninjutsu in the long term?
     
  18. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    Not only long term. At all. Not fair though in this thread since it's just my opinion.

    Edit:
    A bit quick there.
    It's just that the impression I have of bujinkan is that it's more or less populated with persons interested in ninjutsu and ninjas. I understand that it's unfair of me since it would depend on the place. Some respected members from the ninja clans around here also.
    And also what Dean said.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  19. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Just because Koryu might not be an option for you now, doesn't mean that it won't be in the future. HEMA and Koryu are excellent companions, since HEMA is essentially an attempt to recreate European Koryu. I love (and practice) both. Going from HEMA to Koryu would be a great idea, and vice versa.
     
  20. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

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