move outta the way doesn't mean you have to be "if you focus on defending *everything*" you could be getting outta the way by moving to one side and hammering in a thigh kick - or doing whatever... also "Ill suck a leg kick if it means i am going to land a more powerful shot." yeah thats true but you are not gonna "suck" a left hook to the jaw are you... well you might,but.... also you are not avoiding every attack... i was simply pointing out that whilst people were fixating on 'blocking' they should also consider the opportunity for attack that comes from slipping, ducking and weaving
maybe i worded poorly. you said why bother blocking when you should get out of the way- should being the operative word. in most cases moving out of the way of a hook is difficult (the whole idea of the hook is that they dont see it coming) for a hook to the jaw if i planned to just suck it up- id put my gloves inbetween my face and their hand
well actually i didn't say 'should' but whatever... i agree put the gloves in the way... however, when going bare knuckle this doesn't work... thats why when you see old pictures of bare knuckle fighters they have there guard farther out than mdern boxers
Hmm, not sure about that one. Could it not be that the old style pugilists guards were held in lower, not because covering up is somehow ineffective against bareknuckled punches, but because the head was not as much of a primary target as it is now? Think about it - slamming unprotected fists into someones skull for however long one of those matches went on for would not have been a great idea. The body would have been a more attractive target, hence, lower guard.
no... i am sorry to say that is rubbish... the gueard is lower because of various reasons... but not to protect the body any more - it is mainly due to the fact that bare fists against your head like a modern boxing guard is innefective as a form of protection - if you don't believe me try it out, the punches will mostly get through - and those that hit your fists, will rattle you as much as if they weren't there. Hence the guard is lower (to enable you to see the shots coming more, and farther out, to allow a bit of distancing (like a fence) and to allow you to intercept shot better, like a wedge. another reason is that much of the 'dirty boxing' techniques have been removed from the sport since that era, things like throws, elbows, and many grappling techniques were part of the game in bygone days, before queensbury rules...
wrong. do you watch many mma matches? covering is, even without boxing gloves, a very effective defense. I know from doing bareknuckle sparring that it still works. the guard was lower in those days for many reasons- but one of the MAIN ones is because hitting someone in the head, especially someone who gets hit for a living, is going to break your hands. all this means is that you havent been taught very well. we dont even do much bare knuckle sparring and I can manage it.
Punching the face and jaw - not the head "DESCRIPTION of a BOXING MATCH. June 9th 1812" "Battle between Ward and Quirk for 100 Guineas aside - Remarks, a more determined and spirited contest than this has seldom been witnessed, the first twelve Rounds were exceedingly hard fought without the slightest attempt to shift on either side. Ward had a decided advantage over his opponent in the science of the art of boxing, and he showed himself a much better hitter than Quirk. The loss of the contest might in a great measure be attributed to his gaiety (flashy display) for he was full of fight until his strength failed him, which with an accidental hit, deprived him altogether of defending himself, the beating he received was nothing in comparison to what he had given, for his opponent's head was swelled hideously, and his eyes were invisible..." RESULT: QUIRK beat JACK WARD l8mins; l3rounds 100 Guineas Padnal Comer, Epping Forest. Reference: SAWYER, Tom, NOBLE ART, Unwin / Hyman, 1989. I could give you loads more examples like the one above to prove to you that the face was indeed a target in old-English bare-knuckle pugilism. With regards to the low extended guard: This was brought in at a time when a lot of 'defence' trainers were also swordsmen. They simply tried to apply Fencing principles to the art of Boxing, in an attempt at making it more 'scientific'. There had been a lot of debate and argument as to whether the point of a sword was more deadly than the edge, so a lot of defence professors at the time (who favoured the point over the edge) also decided that 'half-arm punches' [hooks] were inferior to straight 'direct' punches. You should also remember that there was a time when men stood toe-to-toe to fight, and they didn't move around very much. Those who did were often derided by the crowd, and were accused of being cowards. The straight punches were delivered - particularly with the front arm - with a lunging movement of the upper body (as one might when thrusting a sword), whilst the rear arm was used to deflect the opponent's straight hits. Palms of the hands were held facing towards the boxers, so that any blows coming in and landing on the hands would not as easily damage the fingers and smaller knuckles. Pugil
Please do, as this is quite interesting. However also note that I, at no point, said the head was not a target. I've heard it said that one of the motivations for the introduction of gloves was not so much to protect the head, but to protect the hands. Anyone else heard this?
"wrong. do you watch many mma matches? covering is, even without boxing gloves, a very effective defense. I know from doing bareknuckle sparring that it still works. the guard was lower in those days for many reasons- but one of the MAIN ones is because hitting someone in the head, especially someone who gets hit for a living, is going to break your hands. all this means is that you havent been taught very well. we dont even do much bare knuckle sparring and I can manage it." i am in fact not wrong at all... if YOU watch any mma matches you will see that any of the really good fighters have there guard farther out than a boxers... chuck lidell is a good example - of course you end up covering close in when you have to - but by choice you move or parry the shots farther out. further more if you think that old bare knuckle fighters didn't aim for the head then you are delusional, how do you think they knocked each other out most of the time? the head is the most natural target. also... you know nothing of my training or how i have been taught... bare knuckle is what we do 90% of the time - and if you get a bit more time of doing it yourself you may learn a thing or two about the adaptation that is necissary when adapting modern ring striking skills to a bare knuckle more multi faceted scenario
the main thing that the gloves protect is the hands as the the hands are damaged through impact (the damage to the head, or at least the serious damage, tends to be from the snap movement of the head effecting the brain... this still happens with gloves on) sorry for double post
go and watch rampage fight. and i am quite aware of what you need to modify for bareknuckle, which I said before
Bareknuckle Pugilism Well I'm not going to spend too much time looking up and posting stuff, as you could almost as easily research it yourself, but here are one or two others: "Dick at length placed a slight facer [blow to the face]; and in the exchange of hits, in a rally, he napt a rum one between the chaffer [mouth] and the sneezer [nose], which Spring [the second of Perkins] called out, 'First blood! and we shall win it!' "Both men rallied like nothing else but out of outers; and lots of claret [blood] trickled down their faces." "Cribb's right eye had been completely closed in the final stages of round two..." "The immortal Heenan's right eye was closed up with a huge lump of blue flesh, produced by the Englishman's well-directed and determined blows; his upper lip, too, was puffed out, as if there were six rows of gums and teeth behind it." "Photography also enabled 'mug shots' to be taken immediately after an important fight, for sale to a public appreciative of contusions, cauliflower ears, bunged-up eyes and split lips." Pugil
don't worry, I watch and analyse a huge amount of MMA - to be honest, this kind of discussion can end up going knowhere fast, as it is all down to interpretation of dynamic and ever changing movements... very hard to explain without seeing or doing a lot of the time i find. we may have very similar view points talking at cross reference here.
Gloves Gloves [mufflers] were originally brought in as they lessened superficial damage to the face. They also found out that they protected the hands too. The wearing of gloves, combined with wrapping the hands and wrists, allow a more sustained punishment (with a lesser amount of superficial facial cuts) to be delivered - especially to an opponent's brain! Pugil
"Go and watch..." !!! Go and watch people swim and it won't make you a better swimmer. Go and watch anything else for that matter... same result! If you really want to figure stuff out, go participate and find out for yourself! Pugil
...which is what I did. If you had read my posts (I mean jeez, i thought they were short enough because I know some people on here cant handle more than a few sentences at a time)
All this over a little hook punch? lol The hook punch is a nice technique, but its range is limited. When the punch is thrown you usually get blind sided. If you get blind sided you better move with it, if you see it coming you can move in or out to escape the effective range. If you move in you might run into a uppercut. If you move out and disengage you have to cover the distance all over again to get back in. You can block by lifting your arm, but it wont look like a boxing match. The glove in the boxing match normally muffles the punch very well, but in a bareknuckle situation you have to block deeper on their arm to stop the punch from coming into your face. A good rule of thumb is to circle away from your opponents power hand. If they are right handed cirlce right on entry... If you circle left you could run into a nasty R.H. or Hook punch. But once your in you best not circle out right, because all you will do is present a easier target. You could always clench?? Just some idea's....
Short sentences Silly me, I thought you had given someone else the advice to "go and watch rampage fight". Prior to that you also said "do you watch many mma matches?" So my point was not being made just to you, but everyone else reading the thread. Regarding your short sentences: I simply thought that your sentences were short because you couldn't manage to string more than a few words together at a time! On top of that, anyone who can post four-thousand plus posts in a little over a year (short sentences or not) definitely spends more time on a computer and this Forum than they do in the gym, that's for sure! Pugil
yeah i spend more time on this computer probably, being a student and all. my point about rampage is that he uses covering very effectively to counter hooks. so yes, it can be done, unlike someone else said. i didnt give "go watch mma" as advice on how to block, more to show that yes, it can be done.
dude, dude, dude... i tried to just leave this one, but like shuri said... all this over a hook? i am not saying that it is impossible to cover up when fighting bare knuckle (nothing is impossible) just that it cannot be done as in boxing were the shot is absorbed by the gloves... and that much boxing guard comes from the fact that they can absorb blows on the gloves (hell i would do the same, you'd be crazy not to) but fighting bare knuckle your guard and defensive strategies MUST adapt... part of this adaptation is to have a guard which is farther out from your head
