Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Oldi

    Oldi Valued Member

    I was listening to an old episode of the Martial Secrets podcast this morning, in which Rory Miller was bing interviewed. He made the comment that karate dynamics are perfect for infighting, and yet are almost always tested at an inappropriate sparring range. He further went on to say that the sparring range at which karate is usually tested is a range in which boxers and Muay Thai fighters will usually excel. Any thoughts on this idea?
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Which idea?

    All Karate styles have their origins in pretty brutal close quarter fighting, generally at the clinch range.

    I demonstrated this way of looking at Nijushiho (which is me being nice and linking everything to a control) at the Map Meet last weekend:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVoA5BfSVs0"]Bitesize Bunkai 5 - YouTube[/ame]
  3. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired


    I think the long range kick and punch thingy is a sporting / competative iteration.

  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    For info, this is one of our paired Kata / exercises we do which trains the benefits of closing your opponent down, arresting and breaking their posture.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W0ZN8Lg3mo"]Takagi - Kihon Kumite Rapponme - YouTube[/ame]

  5. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    Traditional karate is generally very different than what you see in sport and generally in sparring. A lot of in fighting, very brutal techniques. And a lot more grappling than most people expect.
  6. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    We had our annual Shoto/Wado course on Sunday , the Wado stuff was much closer range , and seemed to focus more on breaking posture.
  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hi Mark,

    Not surprising given that most of our stuff (at this end of spectrum) comes from Koryu Jujutsu - and when I say Jujutsu...anyway...

    Out of interest, who is the Wado instructor on your Shoto/Wado course? I may know him/her.

  8. Oldi

    Oldi Valued Member

    The idea that karate sparring does not play to karate's strengths! Which clearly you all agree with and it has been very interesting to read your responses.
  9. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    This is a really great demonstration. :) My only criticism is that you should emphasize that you are using technique rather than "muscle" to get these control movements. I learned the hard way that "muscling" is a poor substitute for technique. :eek:
  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    There's an earlier longer video in the series devoted specifically to the two control movement applications. :)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9RLIi3ZkM"]Karate Bitesize Bunkai 2: Nijushiho application - YouTube[/ame]
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You could investigate more of JWT's bunkai vids, his excellent Heian Flow System book and check his website for more info too.

    A look at Iain Abernethy's Kata Based Sparring DVD, podcasts etc would also be an interesting point for you.

    Essentially, it looks to set up a live environment, a "sparring match," where the rules seek to promote the techniques of kata rather than what we tend to see now as tournament sparring. All good stuff.

    You could also look at kudo sparring, Enshin sparring (Sabaki challenge), Ashihara sparring for much karate sparring under much more open rules. Not quite the infighting of JWT's bunkai, but something towards that.

  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    pretty much what they said. karate IS infighting, basically.
  13. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Shiai Kumite does not play to most karate style's strength at all (the point fighting aspect) and indeed many forms of free-flowing kumite students practice isn't ideal. Most of the time I see students spar or practice their drills and often they don't bear any real mindset towards the importance of correct distancing.

    Good karate of any style normally has a huge number of grappling applications to boot, so generally speaking karate does work much better in my eyes at close range.
  14. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I've noticed that too, a few months back I switched from Goju Ryu to Wado Ryu. It's exaggerated because the Wado instructor is a much better quality than my old Goju instructor, but so far I've been thoroughly stunned with how much of the training focuses on the importance of breaking posture and how little effort it takes with little movements. 'Tis great fun.
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Which is great, but unless it's practiced against someone who doesn't want you to do it, I'm unconvinced as to how valuable it is. :)

  16. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Very true. It's one of those things you just have to try to see if they work ;)

    Again, I lucked out though with my new instructor as in every class he gets us to drill the techniques and stances we practice against partners with various levels of resistance, so we get the opportunity to try them.

    The only downside is that as I am a "new" student (even though I'm from another style), I still have to wear the white belt - so everybody treats me like I'm made of tissue paper at first :(
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Give it time, that'll change :)

  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    They don't tend to have a choice.
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Same can be said for anything.

    I'm assuming breaking posture covers everything from standing grappling to doing it via strikes?
  20. hext

    hext Valued Member

    I've found this very true when you look at the Bunkai of Kushanku...

    no great distance involved through the whole kata, all tight locks and strikes

    as seen here:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L78fdfGa9D8"]Link to Youtube[/ame]

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