Kanazawa Sword

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by puma, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I don't think there could have been a fairer way of describing it at the end of the day. I have a huge amount of respect for Kanazawa sensei and what he represents.

    But even I felt that his sword form was "off" and I've only had a few years of Aikido behind me.
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Are there any Karate people who do Jigen Ryu?
  3. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    If a sword master did an advanced karate kata at a public demonstration (without having much, if anything, in the way offormal training) , and he had to fumble his way through, showed some things that only remotely look like what it is suposed to look like, and on top of that he tied his belt wrong so that one flap was pointing up...

    would you feel the same way?

    Now, most people with a high level of sword mastery would not dream of pretending to know anything about karate, yet it is not uncommon for high level karate practitioners to grab a sword and 'show some moves'. ebudo used to have an enormous threat titled 'krappy karate katana kamae' for such pics.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    In the same way that you have a handful of Wado folk that practice Shindo Yoshin-Ryu and Shinkage- Ryu, I dare say there are probably shurite karate practitioners that study Jigen-Ryu.

    Hard to say if any dots would be connected in the process however.

    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  5. puma

    puma Valued Member

    You'll be surprised what I do understand actually.

    I remember seeing a Kenjutsu group at Seni a few years back. Came out in all the traditional dress, had expensive swords, etc. But they were useless! So slow. None of it would work in real life. When attacking each other they had to freeze because the defender took so long to do his counter. When watching them I remember comparing them to what I have seen of Otake. (Is he still alive?). He was so quick and precise, but he also used a lot of body movement. His whole body went into the technique. He wasn't just waving the sword about. Kuroda also is amazing. So fast! But again, it isn't just the sword that is quick, but also his feet and body. Their whole body and sword become one. This is nothing like the so-called "traditional" demo's I have seen by other people. Some of them seem to want a fancy sword, dress up in all the garments and say they do a "traditional" sword art, but miss all the hard bits out. More worried about how they look. I don't see too many working on stratergies or anything like that either. Sword arts should take a certain mind set. One slip or mistake and you're dead, or lost a limb. Even with the bokken you can get hurt. I don't know of too many people who are willing to put themselves in a dangerous situation to perfect an art on a regular basis. Surely to truely understand what you are doing you will need to face a blade at some point. That takes guts. How many people do that? True Samurai weren't afraid to die.

    And from a demo point of view, you have to remember if you are performing to people who don't understand your art you need to get their attention. I saw an Iaido guy in Japan. I don't know his name, but apparently was one of the top guys, very respected. His demo went down like a lead fart! It went on and on, all in slow motion, and the crowd were bored stiff. He may have been technically perfect for all we knew, but that didn't matter to anyone. No one could wait for him to finish. So his demo didn't do his art any favours at all.

    Anyway, back to the actual subject. I asked because I wondered if it was a fairly recent thing Kanazawa had learnt or whether he had always done it. I know when Japan got bombed a lot of different arts had to use the same dojo's because of the damage and so people had the opportunity to cross-train if you will. I also would be interested to see any clips of Kanazawa with nunchaku, but I can't find any. I know he did a book a long time ago.
  6. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Nope, the entire rest of your post indicates that you really don't have much of a clue about the traditional sword arts. Not surprised at all.
  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Have you studied any sword work Puma?

    There is much more to it than the meets eye. The wearing of traditional gear (namely Hakama) is an important part of the study of these traditions, not just because it looks flashy but because they often help form the reasoning behind certain techniques and processes.

    Many techniques are also so subtle they may appear slow and weak but are in fact lethal.

    Also, the guys you saw at Seni may well have been relatively new students!

  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I would if you showed you actually knew something.

    How could you assess the value of their swords? The dress while important is not indicative of much, plenty of fraudulent groups get kitted out.

    It's odd that a kenjutsu group would be doing a paired demo with expensive blades, rather than bokuto.

    What ryu was being shown?
    What kata?

    Define useless? Not all kata or teachings will have an immediate link to combat, the speed may also have been for a specific reason.

    So without more detail we can't really say if they were useless.

    Same questions as above. Ryu-ha have various ways of teaching and demonstrating, what you see in a demo may well not be what goes on behind closed doors, there are some good reasons for this.

    From your words it seems that this freezing or speed was across the board so keeping that in mind perhaps there was a reason for this but you simply write it off because it doesn't meet your preconceptions of what sword work should be. Yet another clip which you fail to spot the problems in is ok despite having multiple people point out that it is problematic.

    Again what ryu are you talking about?
    Once we know then some discussion can take place but you can't really make direct comparisons because generalising with koryu is ver tricky. Yes they all share a similar physiology but the anatomy differs (thank you to Dr Friday for that phrase).

    Then of course there is the issue about if those other demos were legit systems, given what you've said so far in the thread we can't be sure you would recognise one.
    This is basically the same problem we see with Karateka or other arts just picking up a sword without proper teaching.

    What strategies? What ryu? You can't discuss these things without identifying which ryu you have seen.

    Would you even recognise a particular ryu-ha kata via the strategies expressed in kata?

    That's simply because you don't mix with the right people.

    Face a blade? In what way? That is incredibly dangerous yet you will still have people doing this, like I said you haven't mixed with the right ones.

    Why do you need to get attention?

    These are not commercial arts where you are desperate to get loads and loads of students.

    So to wrap up. Ultimately you like stuff that fits what you think it should be, if it doesn't and you can't understand it then it's wrong. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Or a group of Mickey Mouse "budoka".

    There are any number of reasons for performing that way, without more detail it's impossible to comment.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    This says it all for me.

    I think the above only happens once every fifty years or so. :D
  11. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Haha, very true!
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Maybe the Karate forum was a better bet after all!
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What's the problem with that forum?

    I've always thought it pretty awesome, one of the better ones on MAP.
  14. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    See Pumas op
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    That's sort of what I meant. What nonsense?!
  16. puma

    puma Valued Member

    So no one has any idea about Kanazawa then? That was the topic. To be honest, I'm not interested in how great you think you are, or how intelligent you wish to appear. It can just go on and on. I haven't got the time to argue with someone I don't know and will never meet. Sorry if you are looking for a sparring partner, but I'm just not interested. If you are the world's authority on all Japanese sword arts then great for you. I just wanted to know about Kanazawa. And I never said what he did was good. I tried to be diplomatic and get away from what I knew would become a session of people just slaughtering what he did. I didn't ask for a critique, just about his history in the sword. So, to get back on topic.....

    I would have thought with his knowledge and background, and the fact he is Japanese, I would have imagined he trained with a real top swordsman. Same with the nunchaku. Is he just trained in that weapon, or a style of Kobudo or something?
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I seem to recall that Kanazawa was friends with Toshiro Mifune and that they cross trained together. I'd have read that in one of the 80s FAI magazines.
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    Sorry Puma but when you come out with things like this:

    I think I'm the last one on here who is trying to do that.

    Wind your neck in a bit, you've made some comments and been questioned on them, that's all.

    If you can't answer then that's fine, no need to get uptight.

    Oh get off it.

    For a start asking about someone's history with a weapon and having a clip of it alongside the discussion is naturally going to generate comments. The gentleman hasn't been slaughtered by any stretch of the imaginination. In fact you have been taken to task over your comments far more than he has for that embu.

    Also when you come out with things like:

    That's not being diplomatic, that's stating a pretty definitive opinion based on what you saw. It's showing that you considered it be be acceptable and of quality.

    On a final note please don't try and make out I am at fault in some way simply because you have failed to address my questions. It shows a lack of character and well to be blunt it's simply bad manners.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  19. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Toshiro Mifune? The one out of the films?
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Yes, the actor and swordsman.

Share This Page