Well Dan, When you get to may age and are doing what I do than we can talk about it. OK. As far as getting the hell beat out of you, I certainly would not allow that to be happening in a program I am in, or am taking at this date and time in my life. I really think you are taking this truly the wrong way. I don't believe any person who is in training for any event is going to be allowing themselves to be taking any kind of beating. ***********
Well, let's see. So you're denying the connection to David Brewer? Hmmm.... Also, I didn't merely stand there and get a beating, it just worked out that way.If you're training seriously, you get HIT. Especially until you know what you are doing. I have no idea what style of escrima it was. The man's name was Martin Florentino and his nephew David. I worked with the nephew and we talked about martial arts back in 1985-86 I had a background in Karate and he said his uncle taught him escrima in his back yard. I went one or two days per week for about 9 or 10 months and was basically there to helpo the nephew. The uncle would coach the nephew while we sparred and I would thus take a pretty good beating from it. When the uncle got to drinking, he would jump in to show the nephew what he was doing wrong etc. and it was even worse for me. It was fun though as I like combat arts and sparring. I didn't sign on for painting classes.
Dan You mention? Well, let's see. So you're denying the connection to David Brewer? Hmmm.... ************ This connection you are trying to tie me with is very funny. Where are you coming from, here? http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/2006/10/david_brewer_ii.html He is a person from his picture and Bio that I have nothing in common with. I am not a Muslim nor am I of African American descent. I am what they call, white! I am an Agnostic and have no relations to the man that I know of, other than what is in your mind. Going that extra mile I see. LOL So as far as your eskirima training I have no idea. I look at the training of the system to learn the strikes and the defense's, the way the system is taught and defined. I know of none that train in hurting each other with a weapon, of a stick or a knife or a sword, none. I have taken/received some in the military or the LEO training I have received. Even then the person receiving the hits had on some sort of protection. Free for alls and beer and wine and hard liquor flowing different then training IMHO... I guess if you are learning at a small location and the beer is flowing that is a different thing then what I consider proper training. Guess it goes back to ego and not much other as far as that aspect goes. If we are talking, doing to others as what has been done to you, now that is a whole different thought pattern. I remember at a location in a garage where I was training that a long sword was introduced and told to do the strikes and the person then used the side of the sword to show how the training is to be done with that application. I did not care for it because I would have been the one to get cut not the other person. I told him that at the time, he then put it back and we continued. I felt that it was not smart since he is the one who would lose in the end. Never continued with the lessons, to do so would have been stupid IMHO.. Gary
Getting the life beat out of you is not a requirement of "alive" training. But don't expect to ever be on the level of pro-fighters in terms of proficiency in open-hand combat if you don't like getting hit.
KempoFist declares; Getting the life beat out of you is not a requirement of "alive" training. But don't expect to ever be on the level of pro-fighters in terms of proficiency in open-hand combat if you don't like getting hit. My thoughts, Being on the level of a pro fighter is not my desires. I am sure some are of the thought when they write about this, they are in fantasy land if that is the case. Most of your Martial arts have been really tweaked and screwed with, in that respects. To go fight in a contest is much different then being able to try and defend yourself against an attacker of the sorts that are out there. Learning to avoid is much better than confrontation in the real life situation, it certainly can't be misconstrued as to the verbal stuff that goes on at these baords. LOL... If this was a face to face situation it would be conducted quite different I would think. To enjoy being hit is not part of the equasion regarding self defense. To avoid being hit is usually the first step. To be in shape and to be aware is near the top as far as I am concerned. To actually injure others and face the consequences in court more than once will end you up in an area you will be probably not enjoy very much. Bluff and bravado are gamesmanship situations that stops when the real deal gets going. Gary
Avoiding damage and escaping a situation is the goal of self defense. I've always liked saying that the difference between fighting and self defense is in fighting you seek to win, in self defense you seek to get away. Aside from that, the tools used are the same. A jab works the same way in a ring as it does in a bar or an alley. The same things fail the same way in the street as they do in sparring at the dojo no matter what excuses you give yourself. But in regards to taking hits, I made my sport MMA fighter reference, because the top fighters of their respective organizations are all guys who have no problem walking into a punch just to dish one back even harder. That may not be the best self defense curriculum for the average person, but that kind of person can and will beat anyones @ss no matter where they are.
Seems to be about right, regarding people who's notoriety are of that persuasion. One of the reasons I would say I like the choke and other holds that are very effective when applied correctly and you are in the shape and condition to use them. One of the reasons why the knife, gun and other weapons comes to mind. :woo: The true test is the ring no doubt. Must be one of the reasons there are so many drive by's and other acts of cowardice. I notice most of your gangbangers run in packs or mobs of sorts. Why I am very grateful for the ability to ccw. But given a choice, I would like to relax and watch the fight on tv now. Gary
Well Gary, Even though I think that you're a wee bit overly sensitive about the race issue, "I'm what they call WHITE!" etc., in all fairness, how are we supposed to know what you are? There are no photos of you anywhere. But your point about my signature quote is well taken, so I updated it with something a bit more contemporary. Enjoy.
Hello all, Good debate and I would like to add my voice to it. Basically, my philosophy is that you fight how you train. The goal of martial arts is to defend yourself, I agree, and there is a difference between fighting and defending yourself. However, once pure evasion (usually by avoiding the fight entirely) is exhausted as an option, physical contact is necessary, and offense is the best defense. Sometimes a choke will work, but often it won't and often the person has a weapon, and they must be neutralized quickly. Finally, I believe that in any fight you are going to get hit, cut, etc and your objective should be to minimize the damage and learn how to absorb it effectively. Thus, Gary I feel that your stance on not getting "beat up" in class is foolhardy. I agree one shouldn't get mauled in class, at least not regularly, but since you fight how you train, you should train hard (within reason based on your skill level; full contact for white belts is foolish). Contact, bruises, even blood shouldn't be all that rare if you are training properly. You talk a lot about "alive" training; I argue it cannot be alive without contact. Pain is the force in which a martial artist exerts his control on the opponent, and through which control is exerted on you. One does not need to enjoy getting hit, but one has to be able to handle it, and increase their tolerance to contact. Otherwise, surprise attacks, lucky shots, or just plain skill will take you out prematurely.
Well, we think of that as the most rudimentary and most likely to fail method of control... but it is also the most common, of course.
Dan Thank you, I am honored that you would go to the trouble of putting that there. You should add, for your own welfare. LOL So now that we have completly gotten off course due to childishness. Are you saying we are growing up in a vacuum and never learning pain or injury prior to stepping into this dojo of information, that you have established. All of the above answers are pretty off topic and not very real life or a learned state, that has gone on for millions of years regarding the survival of the species and the normal limits that are there without some further training. I believe training is the key and then intelligence needs to take some of the inititive, which is missing in a few of the persons explaining their position. Each and everyone has limits and some of us are smarter then others when it come's to knowing their limits and their desires. I will stay with my thoughts on this and if you can persuade me through sensible discourse of correct thought (which I doubt do to my lifes experience's) I will be glad to continue this. The factor here is sensible for the situation. Some are putting a failure to communicate here by being unable to understand or someone who has not been there or who has no idea of lifes experience prior to stepping into the dojo of learning you have put forth. Thanks for the insight and the laugh for the day. I feel better the more I read as to the knowledge you bring to the table. Gary
BGile, I think I understand the points you make. I would comment that everyone has their own path in life and martial arts. I very much doubt that you have been doing the exact same training all your life, I would rather believe that like everyone, you have changed and your training has changed throughout your years of experience. What I'm getting at is that you are no beginner, you have built on a strong foundation to get to where you are today. It is on this foundation that you add your personal touches and variations. Some try to build maybe too soon an a weak foundation, and then it does not matter how much they add to it, the whole premise eventually or suddenly collapses in a big wake up call because of the weakness in their foundation. My first interest is in the building of a strong and good foundation from which to grow. I'm not so quick to dismiss things as some others as wasted time or as ineffective technique, I first try to look at the basic principles and foundation to see what is missing when things don't work and what things are present when things do work. I agree with you that not getting hit is a basic principle and a very important one at that. I would clarify, however, that getting hit (in training) and protecting yourself may be part of building a foundation in learning how not to get hit. I believe that it is the premise of an uke to experience the technique so as to learn to better protect themselves and counter the technique (and better apply the technique when they are nage). It is not just the uke is there so that the nage can practice their techniques on a living person. Well just some thoughts. Take care.
With proper body conditioning, moderate contact is not going to cripple anyone. And with proper equipment, full contact can be done, and is very useful to training. We have several Kajukenbo people who even fight full contact escrima well into their 60's. http://youtube.com/watch?v=1g3mZR1AJmM http://youtube.com/watch?v=1g3mZR1AJmM Dosen't look as pretty when the other guy is fighting back. But then anyone can beat up a bag or a "BoB" dummy, and look good.
If someone involved in this thread has to be told that fighting isn't always pretty, then I feel real bad for them, because that means they have alot of layers of delusions to get over before they can even think of beginning training. Cool videos, Professor.
Actually, after non-violent recourses have been exhausted, I am not sure what exists besides inducing some pain on your opponent. Every strike, throw, lock, even choke causes pain.
Rebel Wado mentions, I agree with you that not getting hit is a basic principle and a very important one at that. I would clarify, however, that getting hit (in training) and protecting yourself may be part of building a foundation in learning how not to get hit. I believe that it is the premise of an uke to experience the technique so as to learn to better protect themselves and counter the technique (and better apply the technique when they are nage). It is not just the uke is there so that the nage can practice their techniques on a living person. Rebel Wado, you have a very good point. I agree with you, this is something that we have not discussed, but is a good point to clairify, since you have brought it up. I have gotten older and in doing so many times rather then being the one to apply the technique, I ask to have the technique applied to me to make sure the person is doing it right, and to continue to remember the pain and the desire to be able to continue a learning process based on an old saying that pain makes believers. When putting a tap hold on someone they receive the pain but as a general rule have not the experience or knowledge of how much to apply to get the proper response, some holds cause so much pain that they don't believe they are really hurting the recipient and will not stop when the tap is given. Causing some real problems some times. When you give some one your neck to have a hold applied to you or your arm or leg you are doing so against your normal thinking because you are trusting that person to do a proper technique. Not the same in a real fight, when if the person gives (taps) you don't just give them the benifit of the doubt. Many times people will fake to get an upper hand and then you are put into the position of gaining it again, sometimes you may not be able to, since you might not be in the best position at the time of release. So, since I have hurt, maimed, and given people injuries that will follow them for the rest of their life, I am not so inclined, anymore. That is probably one of the reason's I feel the way I do now. John mentions, Dosen't look as pretty when the other guy is fighting back. But then anyone can beat up a bag or a "BoB" dummy, and look good. I'll say this, I don't think most people that play at this game, can actually take the kind of treatment that you can give a bag for working out purpose's. You can make your muscles and body perform at a level, where someone will definitly get hurt big time. It is just a tool to be used when needed. I think it is a good one for the very learned and unlearned to develop or sustain the training necessary to keep you in shape. John let's face one thing right now, so we make no mistake regarding your, experience or mine. We have both been there for to long, with way to much practicle application, to doubt either of us. Someone doing that, would be very foolish to do so. I actually am at the age where if I can not persuade the person to leave me alone and they want to play the type of game that is now out there and I have been accustomed to over my lifes experience's. I am determined to hurt them horribly right out of the chute, or kill if necessary for my survival, that of my family or friends, or an innocent victim. Simple really, if you look at it like that. I consider it pretty commited, so should others. I don't believe I need to be under any restraint as a civilian to protect what is mine and other innocents, I gave up that mentailty when I quit being paid for my sevices. I will use the force, (resonable force) I feel necessay, but someone who wants to take me on and when seeing me, and understand the potential, has to pay the price. I am going to win or die trying, simple. Been that way for to long to change now. Gary Catherman and I have discussed it, and we are both of the same thoughts. Nice to know others are that commited. Does not make me feel like I am alone on my path. As Musashi mentions, "to know one is to know thousands". Comforting don't you think? Really, it is a different intensity. Criminals are not the only people who have that kind of mentality, others are civilised, until loosed. Then everything takes on a very different mentality. You should be able to understand that? If not then you probably have not been playing with the same people I have most of my life... I don't train children in my mentality, but I do train others if they want to learn! If not they can pay the price. Their choice. Gary
Well, you're totally off base on this one. People who don't learn how to take pain in a controlled arena such as a dojo etc., will not be able to keep fighting when they encounter pain for the first time in a real altercation. Really bad time to find out your pain threshold. As to your accomplishments lined up against someone like John Bishop....yeah, right.
I didn't read BGile's statements to mean that. I read his words to say that he does not prefer to train in that manner anymore but he has trained that way in the past. One thing I read into this applies to something that was told to me about how many techniques taught forty years ago have been modified or dropped from the system. These techniques still exist but aren't taught at intermediate levels like they were back then. The reason I was told was that they were too dangerous to train. The reason they became too dangerous was because of the influx of Westerners into the Eastern Martial Arts. So the situation a hundred years ago was that everyone was about the same size and took a long time to train just the basics. Then fifty years ago you have the American GIs and others joining into Martial Arts. The American military folks were young and very enthusiastic. e.g. they liked to pound on each other. Now you had some enthusiastic American that was a lot bigger than their Japanese counterpart doing some of these very dangerous techniques. Well I've been told there were many broken bones and knocked out teeth as a result in training. Things evolved to be safer and some would say they became watered down. Whether or not that is the case, as far as I believe, it is true that techniques were changed to be safer to practice. Many of the old timers never made those adjustments... IMHO, and they practice the technique in a manner that takes a lot more control in order not to do permanent damage. We have the benefit these days of learning the older techniques but also incorporating the more sport oriented techniques that are safer to practice at full speed. We also have better types of padded suits and protection for training. I took BGile as not calling the Kajukenbo technique to be wrong but only that the act of pounding on each other is something that you limit more as you get older. Much of Kajukenbo technique is very basic and is like pounding on each other... very straight forward and to the point... but it takes some control not to cause permanent damage when striking to vital areas. I also didn't read this as a comparison, I only thought that BGile was saying that they both have been around for a while. Of course we should all be grateful to have someone like Professor Bishop contributing to the forum, maybe people don't feel the exact same way about BGile, but I guess my mind isn't made up about that yet.
Real Wado mentions, I also didn't read this as a comparison, I only thought that BGile was saying that they both have been around for a while. Of course we should all be grateful to have someone like Professor Bishop contributing to the forum, maybe people don't feel the exact same way about BGile, but I guess my mind isn't made up about that yet. I'll say, Thank you for a fair shake. I am sure as the quote goes from Will Rogers "everybody is ignorant only on different subjects". Do I think I am saying I am a hall of famer on history about the arts of Kajukenbo or history of the the Martial Arts? I don't think so, am I mentioning that we have been in the same boat at times and places, yes. I am just laying out my thoughts regarding, certain aspects of the way I look at Self Defense and how others should as person's who are not going to fight in the ring, or every shift at work, need to train. To believe the normal person taking Martial Arts needs to be injured all the time is foolish. I feel that most who enjoy beating and hitting their ukes til they are really hurt have no place out there either. In fact if I am at the dojo and see that I take a stance and it usually stops right then. Not many cross me that know me, Dan. Verbal is fine if kept to a respectable sort, but if not, like begets like, simple. Pain does make believers I have mentioned that. It is something Wally Jay has mentioned for years, Pain is one thing the body deals with daily, if you are in my vocation of late, which is construction. I don't have to hit myself every day on the thumb with a hammer to know I will not want it to happen to me. I have been a carpenter since I was 14 working on jobs for part time pay after school, and all my adult life as a second job or primary. I know what pain is all about. I have been on the wrong end of punch's, so do I have to go to the dojo Monday night and take a shot to the liver to know it will hurt. No...LOL Most that I see coming into the schools are not there to learn pain, they leave. LOL...Professional fighters we are not as a general rule. Most that I have met in my life have not fought in years but they practice to stay in shape, and if someone kicked out one of the young 160 pound tough guys knee's, I doubt he would be back again either. One of the things easy to ruin for life is the shoulder, one of the weakest joints of the body. Take a good hammer fist to the collar bone delivered at half speed with a baton or fist, it is gone. Same way with the elbow, fused for life. Not good. But I do agree, pain makes believers. Gary
