Kajukenbo "The original MMA"

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Apr 16, 2007.

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  1. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    Tons of progress on the Kenpo vs MMA front I see...LOL

    Why are you MMA guys hanging out in the Kenpo forum trashing people? Was the TKD forum full?
  2. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Well...MMA is in the title...so...
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Jamie can you imagine the gall of these guys stealing my thread to talk about Ninja's or even worse BJJ. NOT.

    BJJ were in the time frame and did what it took to advance and go to another level in the arts. We learned all that was around at the time in the 60's it was Judo Genes art and it was good and it worked, but you did get hurt sometimes, bad...I've got to tell you. Cold hard bararms are great as a general rule, they do rule, but there is a lot of injury to people so, in came the variable the softer nicer stop the blood to the brain and hold it to long and you are into stink big time.

    Now which is worse on the person to cut off the blood to the brain and cause permanent injury of who knows where, or death, or mess up their neck and voice box for a few months or a year or life? Or better yet, tear the shoulder joint out for life, or just a broken collar bone. Take your choice.

    The real stuff happens when you are working undercover, no help or uniform. Pain is your friend and gravity is a major helper, throwing a 230 pounder over you while fighting others at the same time, and stomping them is how you win. You still have pain from it 30 years later for some of us. IOD...10% of all police are on IOD at one time so that leaves 90% doing the job and they are understaffed by about 100 %. :eek: True.

    Striking, grappling and all of it has its place, but and it is a big BUT...It is the person who makes it happen and the dedication to it. Just because your friend or your instructor is tough, does not make you that way, you become that way by being in it, and doing it, simple.

  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I think this might be some record

    Hey we are over 200 Post in about 48 hours and we are still alive. :rolleyes:

    So any thing about John Wong and Ken/mpo or was that just a teaser like, Jack Wight, no "r" for you. Very Chinese accent while saying is essential.

    I still believe we need to hear more about the history, it is important to understand that what happened in Hawaii and the way things went for the rest of the arts that came to the mainland. How can you bad mouth systems when all they are doing is exactly what happend in the origin of several of the major players right out of the get go.

    Then to top it off Sijo give rank to EP Sr :) to show his eliteness and it does not make it better it only shows the hypocrisy of the whole issue.

    Some one mentioned Bruce Juchnik and he was not honest. Well lets look at it like this, he got his rank from J. Mitose. Some say no but I believe he and the others that are always mentioned did.

    So here he is a 3rd or 4th legit Dan and he gets to meet the original real deal of Hawaii and receives his blessing. I can see why some are really mad and making fun of him. I mean that is true luck or fate or who know's...One heck of a story, I have to tell you. Stories are just that, a fabrication of truth and fiction how much is truth and how much is fiction. That is anyones guess.

    Anyone who does not think Bruce Juchnik is a Master Mechanic of his trade is truly delusional. I was watching an old video of him and a student in 1984 doing Cabalas Escrima (Bruce is an acknowleged senior of the art, the first white Polish to learn it from GM Cabalas) :D

    The man is great, at the physcial side of many of the systems we call Martial Arts. He has many many belts that he does not even wear, he show's up in a Black belt and then will give it to a superior student when they get to be a black belt in his art. Cool... Of course he does have all the official and funny looking stuff also. :D

    I was watching a tape of a tournement when Pat Kelly and some from Bruces school went and fought Joe Halbuna's Kaji guys. Pat got first another got 2nd and another got 3rd and all were given the trophys by the losing side ( kaukenbo folks) gave the prizes, they did not win them. Just one time of many. Pat has put on some pounds, but he is one formidable individual.

    But we are not talking about them. How about some of the stuff on video of Sijo and his moves, anyone got them?

    Did you know Mas Oyama was Korean? Look at the age of the arts from Korea, and yes Tang Soo Do is all about the way of the fist also...But you knew that, right? So it is Kempo/Fist, law of.... :D :D One of Bruce Juchniks first arts he conquered. ;)

    Last edited: Apr 19, 2007
  5. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    I am serious about John Wong. You should ask around Gary. He was pretty important. One of your inner circle buddies would know of him. Besides, if I told you, it wouldn't be as much fun for you would it? There are a lot of people in Kajukenbo history that have put in their time to make it so the rest of us can sit here and debate it in the luxury of our homes and offices. A lot of them are forgotten. There are some that remember and they keep those stories close. Most of those old guys are gone. Debating it now is probably not the most sensible time.

    My point with the Gracie tapes was that the example is that of a quick tap against those people they were fighting. Someone wrote that there was too much time involved in a submission. Against those martial artists, the Gracies tapped them out quickly. Versus an average Joe on the street, there would be no difference. A quick takedown, to position, then on to submission. If they were fighting another submission fighter, the battle is more drawn out. Just as if a Kickboxer was to fight another good striker. A good kickboxer would tear up someone else on the street in a few hits. Put them up against someone who is trained. Different story.

    Which brings us back to the topic of training to fight those people and not just assuming that you are gonna be able to run from Professor Harper!
  6. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Not sure who else is here besides me, and I hold rank in Kempo, and am dismayed to see the same crap being recycled with different labels. Perhaps 1bad, but I'm not sure his background, but as Guf said the title of the thread is about Kaju being MMA.

    And what bothers me is the idea of Dan thinking he can go make outrageous claims and just have people accept them. I don't think you understand (Dan) the value that goes into the BJJ ranking structure.

    I've been training for just over a year, and I'm just now (today actually, got my last stripe) preparing to prove myself to be a blue belt. And a blue belt especially a baby/new blue is still pretty low on the totem pole of BJJ Hierarchy. But the thing is, is that I can tap most other white belts I roll with. But that's not enough. I need to display a certain level of competency with all positions and basic submissions.

    Not just knowing them, but USING them and DEFENDING them against an array of opponents of various sizes, strengths, and styles. By the time I achieve my blue, there should be little to no chance of someone with no real knowledge or experience in ground grappling being able to submit me. It just shouldn't happen. Of course flukes may occur, and no one is beyond falling victim to accidents, but now you've now claimed to not only defeat a blue, but a PURPLE belt! A purple belt is a whole 'nother level, and is in fact instructor status whom would be capable of opening their own classes under the umbrella of his instructor. He has to do the same as I do with white belts, but with blue belts. The idea of someone with basic crappling under his belt, walking into a Jits school, and tapping out a purple belt who was actively trying to defeat you is borderline ludicrous. This is not about BJJ nutriding, this is about facing the facts. The person you allegedly were up against has faced steep competition, and knows how to defend and escape more subs than you probably know exist, let alone ones you can utilize.

    What you could do (what I would do if I were making claims on the net) would be to find this purple belt, or perhaps another one who is legitimately ranked, and offer to roll with him, but tell him that you want him to roll to win, not to play around with you or work with you. Video the outcome, and post it somewhere for us to see. If you last even more than 2 minutes I'll be happy to swallow my humble pie.
  7. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...


    I'm Danjo's former Kempo instructor. We used to do Sparring and Grappling at my school. Danjo has a background in the arts that you wouldn't believe. It doesn't surprised me that he could tap out blue and purple belts. He knows a lot of information and knows how to apply it.
  8. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I don't know much about you Guf, but I do know that Danjo (and I suppose you) used to be in USSD....which means....well I think we all know enough about USSD by now. I know Dan doesn't think very highly of his Kempo days, but to the best of my knowledge he doesn't regret it, but rather prides himself as a born again Kajuer if you will.

    When I used to crapple in Kempo (training with wrestlers, and friends, as well as trying to learn from instructional videos, tutorials and Jiu-Jitsu books) I thought I was pretty good, or at least "decent" on the ground. I figured I had the positions down, I knew some basic submissions and how to counter them. I figured I could hold my own on the mat. And perhaps I could against a completely clueless person in regards to the ground. But taking up Jits formally has made me realize how little I knew at all. It was like I was crawling before thinking I was walking, while everyone else was running marathons.

    I don't know how many blues and purples you've rolled with, especially ones who are not just rolling having fun, but are actively trying to submit you as fast as possible, but please understand that I am more than skeptical of your assessment. See my prior posts a page or so back where I commented about the Jiu-Jitsu learning environment, and how when it's not picked up on, it can breed arrogance out of ignorance of people who are new to ground grappling.
  9. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Yes, I was involved in USSD and FVSSD. Let me also say this...Danjo had a lot of instructors to choose from and he chose to study with me right off the bat. They didn't teach me anything about grappling. So what? Does that mean that he didn't know wrestling or anything else before studying with me?

    You're right...you don't know a lot about me. I'm very old school. I trained my guys hard. I will say that I had the pleasure of making any one of my guys more sore than they ever could at headquarters, and sometimes that was just from group class. I let my guys explore grappling when I had my AC/H joints torn(...for those of you that don't know, AC= acromioclavicular and H = humerus,) via Kimura lock. So what did I do? I started learning how to garage grapple. I'm not your average USSD instructor...quite the opposite. I went outside the system...they hated that. I did it anyway. I didn't want my students to get hurt like I did. My students that knew how to wrestle already, like Danjo, forced me to learn.

    I taught them some submissions as best as I could while having my shoulder dislocate itself in my classes until I had surgery. I could shout out basic submissions and my guys would know exactly what to do.

    Now, I've started with Kron Gracie. He's impressed by how much I know already. How? Easy! I've learned a lot of basics by doing garage grappling. I learned drills, such as shrimping and uumpa drills...I learned how to sweep from being mounted to getting guard, to passing guard. I learned how to sprawl, do sit outs, the duck under...wow, it's amazing! Someone that claims Kempo in their background knows a few things that aren't in a Kempo curriculum. You know what's funny? As I learned these things, I taught them to my students. That's what made me different...I wasn't affraid to show my students that I was still learning.

    You can be as skeptical as you want. I'm sorry you don't trust my judgement of my former student.
  10. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Whatever. Contact Ralph Gracie's JJ Academy in Placentia and see if my old instructor Brad Jackson is still there. The blue belt is a name I forget, but the purple belt was named Ryan. He was asian but I don't know what extraction. I tapped him from the half-guard position that he had me in. It was a move they didn't teach and it only worked once. But it worked and he was not giving it to me. He was ****ED when I did it adn dismayed that it happened to him. I never tapped him again, but I'm not lying or exaggerating. The move was this: my right leg was inside the half-guard and rather than trying to escape it, I posted my left arm behind his neck and brought my left leg over the top of his neck and got his neck in the crook of my left leg. I then squeezed my legs together until his head and knees were touching each other. I then grabbed his left arm, pulled it up and tapped him with an Americana from that position. I'd love to be able to take credit for it, but I got the move off of Mark Hatmaker's video "Beyond Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu" It worked like a charm...ONCE.

    The blue belt I tapped with a toe hold. I tapped other blue belts from time to time with a neck crank that I used when I had them in the guard. After tapping out the third or fourth blue belt with it, Brad Jackson (Ralph Gracie black belt) had me put it on him to see if he could get out of it. HE couldn't. He said it hurt worse the more he tried to get out of it and, "I thnk that might be your 'go to' move Dan." The way to defeat it, he said, was to not get put in it in the first place (I never came close to beating Brad). I got that crank from a book I have of finishing holds by Ed "Strangler" Lewis.

    This can be verified if there are any still there that remember me from May to December of 2004.

    I loved GJJ, but I missed the punching and kicking. I learned a lot of grappling in a short time and feel pretty good about being able to stop a take down or escape back to my feet and start punching and kicking again.

    Anyways, I hate to be the one to ruin your new-found religion, but everything I said here is TRUE.
  11. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    SKK is what it is. I've posted enough about it elsewhere. However, Michelle let us spar as hard as we wanted to, and there were a few of us that wanted to and did. HQ called us "brawlers" and we got DQ'd at the tourneys for exessive contact 75% of the time. We'd spar regular, grappling and even inside a small brick room where Royal Jackson nearly killed us (you had to be there). We called it "wall to wall sparring". When she quit USSD due to HQ being uptight (Most USSD sparring does ëot allov hard cïntact aëd "WatcÉ your cOntact!"¥is screámed oftån), thore of us that liKed the Ôraining¤quit toÏ.
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Alot of the Catch moves worked well against BJJ...ONCE. Then they just wouldn't let you get into that position again. It was like dirty fighting to them with the tricks, but once they knew the trick, it was over. Catch wrestling has a bazillion times more submition holds than BJJ does, but I think BJJ has a better overall strategy for getting into and defending position than Catch Wrestling does.
  13. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    What rank did Sijo promote Ed Parker JR to Gary? Is this another one of those closely guarded secrets?
  14. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Didn't he recognize his rank at one point. Not a promo but recognized his 8th degree. I am bad with numbers though.
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    That would have been Ed Parker Senior. I thought Gary had some secret info on Junior.
  16. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    There are so many people from the old school. Crazy. That school must have crowded classrooms.

    edit: damn governator!
  17. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I think you know what I mean.
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Out of curiosity: How many non-white Poles have learned Cabales Escrima? Unless you meant Polish as in "Shoe Polish" and you were trying to say that Juchnik was one of the first one's to white-wash his credentials.
  19. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    I don't think you see what I'm getting at. As I'm going to bed, I'm not going to play cryptic any longer: The fact that you tapped a purple belt with a Hatmaker catch move doesn't prove anything, as the purple belt could have been (and honestly I think "could have been" is putting it lightly based on my own experiences dealing with higher belts) letting you advance to work his defenses before being surprised by such an unorthodox sub. If he'd been taking the match seriously, I don't see half guard being a position you'd spend much time in before being swept, caught back in full guard, or submitted. Not a put down; a purple has quite possibly spent as much time grappling as you've spent training period. As KempoFist said, the only way to prove that you have grappling skill and not shock factor is by letting a blue or purple know that you really want to know where you stand and *then* going at it.

    I thought for a month or so that I was rapidly catching up to this blue belt, but then he stopped only going at me with moves he was only experimenting with. I almost tapped him repeatedly, I got dominant positioning frequently, I would have even "won" a couple of times had it been a BJJ tournie based on points - but it was all an illusion based on false impressions. I was taking it seriously. He was playing around. And just a week ago he was playing around with a kesa gatame variant when one of the advanced whites caught him with his head up and threw up the leg for the armbar. He was ticked. He yelled "damnit". But to look at that and think that meant anything about their actual skill levels would be a terrible mistake.

    Something to think about in return for the fascinating read you Kempo'ers have provided me as I skimp out on reading my textbooks. :D
  20. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Guf, you are a white belt there yes? I can say from my experience, is that if I took everything everyone said or complimented me with in my training, I'd think I was the next F-ing BJ Penn. I was told as well when I started that I had great basics for someone who just started (because I too crappled and such back in Kempo....only difference is I admit it was crappling).

    I find it interesting how you ran your school....seems to run verbatim to how I did things, complete with the same ending and cause. I remember getting friends, and local martial artists of all kinds to come down to "sparring" classes after hours. HS wrestlers who were already students, one MMA guy, some kickboxers and Jits guys, even some JJJ and KF guys. We had some good times. I find it astounding that you feel though that working submissions that you learned from god knows where on guys in class who wrestled, somehow puts you or Dan on blue or purple belt level of grappling competency, but I suppose the ranks and competition performance are what speak louder than any of our words.

    Dan, that sounds like quite an interesting position you got him in. Some sort of reverse, topside crucifix neck crank, that ended with an americana? I'd be ****ed too if I didn't end it sooner and got caught in such a wonky spot expecting the new guy to try and work his pass or top HG subs.

    All I can say is good on ya all for working with the best you had back in your SKK/USSD/FV days, but the only difference between you and me is that I don't look back with a golden years perspective, embellishing my past with a faux sense of grandiosity to satiate my own ego. I have come to grips with reality, and accept the fact that I am nothing more than a BJJ white belt who likes to throw down. At first it hurts to lose that seat of authority and accomplishment....but you soon learn to embrace it, and it makes you better in the long run.
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